[Politics] Brexit

Trufflehound · Dec 12, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
Wouldn't believe a word she says about that ..... she's a proven liar.

Let's remember she :

1. Said there wouldn't be an general election ..... and then held one.
2. Said that no deal was better than a bad deal ..... and is now trying to deliver a bad deal.
3. Said that said the vote yesterday wouldn't be postponed ..... and then postponed it.

4. Says that Brexit won't be stopped...

Westdene Seagull · Dec 12, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
I keep reading about the treatment of Greece. Do you know anyone who lives in Greece, and why they were made to get their economy in order? They are part of the euro and in deep deep trouble because they let everyone take retirement at 55 without any money to pay pensions.
They got unemployment down by employing council and government workers with no public money to pay them.
They had to have a loan to get them out of trouble, and another, and another. The EU were right to make rules about how they paid it back and how they ran their economy.

We had very similar problems in the 70s and went cap in hand to the IMF. We had rampant inflation and needed loans to pay our bills. We also had to obey rules set down by the IMF.

Greece is recovering by sticking to those rules. They had a general election, and returned a minister who agreed a slightly softer version of the loan agreement, but it is working. I know because I personally know a few families who live in Athens

Portugal was also in trouble a few years ago, and Britain lent them money through the EU. They have paid us back in full and are back on track. That's how the EU works.
If only the media had reported it truthfully.

And you unsurprisingly forgot to mention :

1. The EU let Greece to join the Euro despite knowing they couldn't adhere to the rules of joining. It was more important to see the Euro in as many countries as possible.
2. That France and Germany lent Greece money they knew they couldn't afford and tied it to the awarding of weapons contracts to France and infrastructure contracts to Germany. France even knew that Greece didn't need the weapons.
3. That the EU were involved of the removal of the elected government.
4. That normal Greek people actually died due to the EU policies forced on Greece. That doesn't matter though just as long as the EU project rolls on.

Da Man Clay · Dec 12, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
Wouldn't believe a word she says about that ..... she's a proven liar.

Let's remember she :

1. Said there wouldn't be an general election ..... and then held one.
2. Said that no deal was better than a bad deal ..... and is now trying to deliver a bad deal.
3. Said that said the vote yesterday wouldn't be postponed ..... and then postponed it.

The difference between that and what she says about stepping down though is that if she doesn’t step down she would just lose a vote of no confidence. It’ll be more than a year from now so no problem wiith getting another 48 letters when the time comes.

pb21 · Dec 12, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
Wouldn't believe a word she says about that ..... she's a proven liar.

Let's remember she :

1. Said there wouldn't be an general election ..... and then held one.
2. Said that no deal was better than a bad deal ..... and is now trying to deliver a bad deal.
3. Said that said the vote yesterday wouldn't be postponed ..... and then postponed it.

This video from June 2016 is worth a watch, particularly with what she says about not calling a GE and more notably what she said she would do before initiating the A50 process!

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tive-leadership-bid-brexit-means-brexit-video

If only she didn't lie we wouldn't be in as much of a mess now.

Thunder Bolt · Dec 12, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
And you unsurprisingly forgot to mention :

1. The EU let Greece to join the Euro despite knowing they couldn't adhere to the rules of joining. It was more important to see the Euro in as many countries as possible.
2. That France and Germany lent Greece money they knew they couldn't afford and tied it to the awarding of weapons contracts to France and infrastructure contracts to Germany. France even knew that Greece didn't need the weapons.
3. That the EU were involved of the removal of the elected government.
4. That normal Greek people actually died due to the EU policies forced on Greece. That doesn't matter though just as long as the EU project rolls on.

Way to twist things round eh? Greece applied to join the euro, so why should the EU say no?

Thunder Bolt · Dec 12, 2018

[tweet]1072859665241964544[/tweet]

clapham_gull · Dec 12, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
Way to twist things round eh? Greece applied to join the euro, so why should the EU say no?

They couldn't afford it ?

Simster · Dec 12, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
Way to twist things round eh? Greece applied to join the euro, so why should the EU say no?

Because they couldn't meet the criteria. Westdene is right on this one - there is no way two economies as disparate as Germany/Netherlands should have been bound with Greece/Portugal by a single currency.

It is this sort of thinking that was easy meat for the anti-EU brigade in the press. I'm all for the EU, but it is high time for a shake up.

Thunder Bolt · Dec 12, 2018

Simster said:
Because they couldn't meet the criteria. Westdene is right on this one - there is no way two economies as disparate as Germany/Netherlands should have been bound with Greece/Portugal by a single currency.

It is this sort of thinking that was easy meat for the anti-EU brigade in the press. I'm all for the EU, but it is high time for a shake up.

The Greeks weren't forced or coerced into joining the euro. It was their government's decision. Should the EU have been a Big Brother and said no?
Who's minding the babysitter?

nicko31 · Dec 12, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
Sky News reporting 141 Tories have publicly stated they'll back The PM tonight thus far.

I thought The ERG oddballs were very quiet and conspicuous by their absence in PMQ's from what I saw of it too. Make of that what you will.

You just get the feeling she isn't going to lose, the moderates will still back her even if they don't back her deal.

Brief sterling rally I notice, before we are back to square one at 9pm tonight...

BBassic · Dec 12, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
The Greeks weren't forced or coerced into joining the euro. It was their government's decision. Should the EU have been a Big Brother and said no?
Who's minding the babysitter?

It's possible in that instance the EU could have played the concerned barman when a bloke has stumbled up completely battered and asked for a Jägerbomb: "Nah mate, you've had enough"

Can see it from both sides personally.

clapham_gull · Dec 12, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
The Greeks weren't forced or coerced into joining the euro. It was their government's decision. Should the EU have been a Big Brother and said no?
Who's minding the babysitter?

I'm sorry there is much in it than that, what were the EU auditors up to ?

ManOfSussex · Dec 12, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
FT reporting that a couple of whips might vote against her. She's got to be in trouble if the whips are turning.

nicko31 said:
You just get the feeling she isn't going to lose, the moderates will still back her even if they don't back her deal.

I still think she'll comfortably get her 158. As I said on one of the other threads this morning, the big thing is how many MP's, up to and beyond 100/circa 1/3 of the parliamentary party, do actually vote against her. Even if she wins, it's going to be difficult to continue if it's around or over that figure. This was an interesting take I noticed on her saying she won't fight the next election:

[tweet]1072859760028995584[/tweet]

Westdene Seagull · Dec 12, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
The Greeks weren't forced or coerced into joining the euro. It was their government's decision. Should the EU have been a Big Brother and said no?
Who's minding the babysitter?

Because the EU set the rules for entry into the Euro. The rules were there to protect the currency and the Eurozone. They then turn a blind eye to those rules and wonder why a member gets into trouble. I know you're keen on rules being adhered to so why do you think the EU shouldn't enforce it's own rules with Greece and the Euro ?

clapham_gull · Dec 12, 2018

I'm not sure there can be any debate over whether the EU completely f#### up by letting Greece in ?

I'm comfortable as remainer to say that.

Thunder Bolt · Dec 12, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
Because the EU set the rules for entry into the Euro. The rules were there to protect the currency and the Eurozone. They then turn a blind eye to those rules and wonder why a member gets into trouble. I know you're keen on rules being adhered to so why do you think the EU shouldn't enforce it's own rules with Greece and the Euro ?

Were the Greeks entirely honest about their situation beforehand? I know using the euro caused massive problems as prices double overnight.

Fair comment [MENTION=865]clapham_gull[/MENTION].

Simster · Dec 12, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
The Greeks weren't forced or coerced into joining the euro. It was their government's decision. Should the EU have been a Big Brother and said no?
Who's minding the babysitter?

The issue was that the Greeks fudged the criteria for entry, with the assistance of the EU, and even then the Greeks hadn't actually met the criteria by the deadline. The EU should have told them to wait.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_convergence_criteria

Ernest · Dec 12, 2018

I wonder how many of those , especially the ministers and potential leader candidates, who've said they will vote for May actually do so

Triggaaar · Dec 12, 2018

Kalimantan Gull said:
Economic growth requires population growth, and more specifically, workforce growth. So we need immigration.

If your statement is true, then at some point we need to accept no further economic growth, otherwise we need a population of infinity.

CHAPPERS · Dec 12, 2018

Her deal doesn't get through even if she does stay in, she's just managed to push the vote back to increase pressure on it. A disgraceful act and why Corbyn was right to show such anger at PMQs.

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