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[Football] Gareth Southgate bemoans lack of English players



GT49er

GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
46,717
Gloucester
clippedgull said:
I agree with this. Even players not picked for their international sides should be good enough to step up for a couple of games. I hate the way the season is broken up with these breaks. Not going to happen though. :(
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I'm sure I remember back in the 50s international (home internationals) being played on Saturday afternoons, at the same time as the league fixtures. So if your star centre half, left haft half, inside right or whatever was called up, you just played his understudy instead. Can't see that happening again, either.
 




Easy 10

Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
61,750
Location Location
mejonaNO12 aka riskit said:
David Nugent was at Preston when he was called up.

I'm assuming Stoke's Jack Butland has been called up for the latest squad.
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Steve Bull went to Italia 90 as a squad player when he was at Wolves in the 2nd division. It does happen, but the fact we're scraping around the odd name here and there and having to go back years proves what a rarity it is. Nugent earned one solitary cap (and scored!).

If you're not in the top flight, you're not testing yourself against the best, so you can't really expect be able to bridge that gap from 2nd division to International level.

As for your point on the cream not rising to the top, or not getting the chance to. I agree its gotten more difficult, but it can still be done. We've been well served by the likes of Pochettino at Southampton and then Spurs. He's given a young crop of English players their chance, he's clearly coached them well, put his faith in them and they've come through and flourished at club and now International level. The pathway is there, if our young talent is at the right club, with the right coach.
 


Lower West Stander

Lower West Stander

Well-known member
Mar 25, 2012
4,753
Back in Sussex
Easy 10 said:
Why pick out the Chelsea lineup from last weekend to make a point ? You can't get more 'highly selective' than that. England have been very well represented over the last 10 years by Chelsea players, who have consistently won major honours with them domestically and in Europe. Chelsea have had all-foreign lineups before in the past (weren't they the first ever to field a team with no englishmen back in the 90's ?), yet later on, we've had the likes of Terry, Lampard, Le Saux, Cahill, Cole etc. It goes in cycles, just like at most clubs.

As for the 60's being a successful period for England, which it was (with one crowning moment), what happened after that ? We stood still, while the rest of the world caught up. Nothing to do with being nearly all english players in the top flight. We just weren't very good. Sure we had more choice of players at our disposal, but like cable TV, that wasn't necessarily a good thing. The shit was just more thinly spread.

England players are all over the shop in the Premier League, most of them playing regularly for our top clubs in Europe. We've never had an embarrassment of riches in every position in my living memory, but thats not because we're overrun by average foreign players IMO, thats never been the case. Clubs can afford better quality now, so for England players to break through, they too have to be better. All the PL clubs are able to afford some of, if not THE best players in the world now, so given the quality in the PL these days, I don't think 30% is too bad a number.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

In the 60s and 70s, teams were far less polarised. There was no top 6. Man U and Spurs were playing in the old division 2. Division 1 was won by Arsenal, Derby, Leeds, Liverpool and Forest.

Apart from the notable exception of Leicester, money is now the dominant factor and its hard to see beyond the top 6 winning the Premier League again this year. For that reason, the number of English players playing for those teams is far more relevant. I'm not saying top players should be not in the PL - of course they should. De Bruyne, Silva, Kante, Hazard are top top players who any Englishman would benefit from playing against.

But do we really need the tier of foreign players we see below that elite? Clubs are not incentivised to buy from the lower leagues because players are unproven, but players from the continent are just as big a risk - how many Carlos KIckaballs do we see who appear for a season, are rubbish and then disappear back?

Even Albion are guilty of this. Is Balogun really better than Goldson?
 




B

BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
Opportunity is key, which mostly is driven either by policy or luck, you have to remember the vast majority of these foreign players if you cared to look at their own career paper trail at some point were given an opportunity to be selected in front of a player perhaps better than him, either through selection policy, suspension or injury, some then thrived and developed into Premier League class players that then come to England and block the way for a similar young version of themselves.

I noticed that on The Goldstone Facebook Page recently Gary Stevens mentioning his debut:

Brighton were in the First Division and a few games into it I was in the team following an injury to Mark Lawrenson which gave me my chance

Now he might have gone on to play anyway, but unless you are a Rooney, Owen or Giggs it doesn't always follow you achieve the potential you might have and somehow just freeze your status or progression for sometime later, it requires opportunity deserved or otherwise.
 




Easy 10

Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
61,750
Location Location
Lower West Stander said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

In the 60s and 70s, teams were far less polarised. There was no top 6. Man U and Spurs were playing in the old division 2. Division 1 was won by Arsenal, Derby, Leeds, Liverpool and Forest.

Apart from the notable exception of Leicester, money is now the dominant factor and its hard to see beyond the top 6 winning the Premier League again this year. For that reason, the number of English players playing for those teams is far more relevant. I'm not saying top players should be not in the PL - of course they should. De Bruyne, Silva, Kante, Hazard are top top players who any Englishman would benefit from playing against.

But do we really need the tier of foreign players we see below that elite? Clubs are not incentivised to buy from the lower leagues because players are unproven, but players from the continent are just as big a risk - how many Carlos KIckaballs do we see who appear for a season, are rubbish and then disappear back?

Even Albion are guilty of this. Is Balogun really better than Goldson?
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So you're asserting that the fact that the bulk of the England squad is drafted from our top 6 teams is a weakness ? I'd say its a strength, because (a) it means that they are actually good enough to play for one of our elite teams, and (b) they are getting regular football on a European stage. That can only be a positive.

Is Balgun better than Goldson ? From what I've seen so far, I don't see him being inferior. Plus the fact Balogun has played regularly in a top European league, and has also now played in a World Cup. He may or may not be better, but he certainly has a superior pedigree. If Goldson had been better in general, then maybe he'd have dislodged Duffy or Dunk in his time here. But he didn't manage it (albeit he did have to recover from a major operation to save his career).

If JFC had been better, maybe we'd still have him instead of Kayal or Propper, but Stephens has rightly kept his place over allcomers here. Sometimes, english players just aren't quite good enough. Its a competitive market. The best WILL get their chance though, I am a believer of that.
 




Lower West Stander

Lower West Stander

Well-known member
Mar 25, 2012
4,753
Back in Sussex
Easy 10 said:
So you're asserting that the fact that the bulk of the England squad is drafted from our top 6 teams is a weakness ? I'd say its a strength, because (a) it means that they are actually good enough to play for one of our elite teams, and (b) they are getting regular football on a European stage. That can only be a positive.

Is Balgun better than Goldson ? From what I've seen so far, I don't see him being inferior. Plus the fact Balogun has played regularly in a top European league, and has also now played in a World Cup. He may or may not be better, but he certainly has a superior pedigree. If Goldson had been better in general, then maybe he'd have dislodged Duffy or Dunk in his time here. But he didn't manage it (albeit he did have to recover from a major operation to save his career).

If JFC had been better, maybe we'd still have him instead of Kayal or Propper, but Stephens has rightly kept his place over allcomers here. Sometimes, english players just aren't quite good enough. Its a competitive market. The best WILL get their chance though, I am a believer of that.
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I'm not saying its a weakness. Its hard to know when hardly any Englishman play for the top 6 clubs - which is my point.

I have no idea if Balogun is better than Goldson either. But if we'd have kept Goldson he would have being playing in our first team now. Hence a promising English player is denied the chance to play in the PL by a foreign import.
 




K

Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
NSC Patron
Jul 16, 2003
57,887
hassocks
Easy 10 said:
Why pick out the Chelsea lineup from last weekend to make a point ? You can't get more 'highly selective' than that. England have been very well represented over the last 10 years by Chelsea players, who have consistently won major honours with them domestically and in Europe. Chelsea have had all-foreign lineups before in the past (weren't they the first ever to field a team with no englishmen back in the 90's ?), yet later on, we've had the likes of Terry, Lampard, Le Saux, Cahill, Cole etc. It goes in cycles, just like at most clubs.

As for the 60's being a successful period for England, which it was (with one crowning moment), what happened after that ? We stood still, while the rest of the world caught up. Nothing to do with being nearly all english players in the top flight. We just weren't very good. Sure we had more choice of players at our disposal, but like cable TV, that wasn't necessarily a good thing. The shit was just more thinly spread.

England players are all over the shop in the Premier League, most of them playing regularly for our top clubs in Europe. We've never had an embarrassment of riches in every position in my living memory, but thats not because we're overrun by average foreign players IMO, thats never been the case. Clubs can afford better quality now, so for England players to break through, they too have to be better. All the PL clubs are able to afford some of, if not THE best players in the world now, so given the quality in the PL these days, I don't think 30% is too bad a number.
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Barkley had started the first two games for Chelsea -

So they have played an English player 2/3 of the league games.
 


Easy 10

Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
61,750
Location Location
Lower West Stander said:
I'm not saying its a weakness. Its hard to know when hardly any Englishman play for the top 6 clubs - which is my point.

I have no idea if Balogun is better than Goldson either. But if we'd have kept Goldson he would have being playing in our first team now. Hence a promising English player is denied the chance to play in the PL by a foreign import.
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No. He'd already been denied the chance to play in the PL for a whole year by an irishman and a fellow englishman, not Balogun. We didn't just move him on because he wasn't deemed good enough. He just wanted to play football and we did the right thing by not standing in his way. Goldson wasn't binned off because we'd got Balogun. As chance would have it, with Dunk crocked, Goldson would probably have got his chance with us this season, but those are the breaks. However, I suspect Dunk would have been straight back in the team at Goldsons expense once fit again, and Goldson was probably well aware of that, which is why he had to move on.
 


W

worthingseagull123

Well-known member
May 5, 2012
2,579
Easy 10 said:
But how can you make that judgement when week in, week out they're playing against 2nd rate players ?
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Skill, fitness and talent does not evaporate.

Is Ronaldo less of a player when Portugal play Malta, Luxembourg or Scotland in a qualifier?

Robson Kanu did pretty well in Euro 2016 having played at Reading.

Irelands keepers Westwood and Randolf play in the Championship.
 




T

The red pepper kid

Active member
Dec 30, 2014
664
All said and done our club felt 2 English players from the championship could step up, however there clubs either blocked it or put the price sky
high--- this sort of thing cannot be helping progression to the national team
 


Publius Ovidius

Publius Ovidius

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
46,019
at home
BBassic said:
It's also worth noting that Chelsea, and many other clubs to be fair, harvest young English talent and then farm them out to the Championship and below. They'll probably never get close to the 1st team but if they end up in the Championship maybe Southgate will spot them.
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Someone on MOTD said that chelsea had 74 players out on loan throughout Europe!

That can't be right
 






Rich Suvner

Rich Suvner

Skint years RIP
Jul 17, 2003
2,500
Worthing
Icy Gull said:
What are the chances of an English Championship team player in any position being better placed to play for England than one already playing in the Premier League though?

Not disagreeing with you but I am struggling to think of a Championship player who is better than we already have.
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agreed, they're slim. but it would be silly to rule out someone simply because they're not in top league (especially with transfer windows limiting movement). but i can't really think of examples in recent years that would've necessitated bringing in a Championship player.
 


Simster

Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,188
Surrey
Easy 10 said:
Steve Bull went to Italia 90 as a squad player when he was at Wolves in the 2nd division. It does happen, but the fact we're scraping around the odd name here and there and having to go back years proves what a rarity it is. Nugent earned one solitary cap (and scored!).

If you're not in the top flight, you're not testing yourself against the best, so you can't really expect be able to bridge that gap from 2nd division to International level.

As for your point on the cream not rising to the top, or not getting the chance to. I agree its gotten more difficult, but it can still be done. We've been well served by the likes of Pochettino at Southampton and then Spurs. He's given a young crop of English players their chance, he's clearly coached them well, put his faith in them and they've come through and flourished at club and now International level. The pathway is there, if our young talent is at the right club, with the right coach.
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You seem literate enough - why have you suddenly turned into a midlantic mong?
 


Rich Suvner

Rich Suvner

Skint years RIP
Jul 17, 2003
2,500
Worthing
Easy 10 said:
Because they're making a "big impact" against Barnsley and Hull. Knockaert can do that, but would he deserve a place in the french squad off the back of it ? As we've seen from last season, the answer is quite clearly no. He hasn't really made the step up in class.

Sessegnon at Fulham might be one to watch, as he has been excellent for them in the 2nd division. Can he do it in the Premier League ? We're about to find out. And if he can consistently do it against the best, then get him in that squad, Gareth. If he can't, then well, he's another Knockaert isn' he.
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I take the point

Regarding the difference between Championship and Premier League though, I often feel (with exception of the top top players) the real difference for most is not talent, but consistency. Knockaert regularly delivered in the Championship but in Premier League it's been here and there - but he had a great game vs Manchester United for example - so clearly is capable.

Therefore, when a player is on a run of confidence, I think they could potentially deliver at international level even if playing in Championship. Also, most internationals aren't against teams playing the standard of top Premier League sides.
 






Easy 10

Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
61,750
Location Location
worthingseagull123 said:
Skill, fitness and talent does not evaporate.

Is Ronaldo less of a player when Portugal play Malta, Luxembourg or Scotland in a qualifier?

Robson Kanu did pretty well in Euro 2016 having played at Reading.

Irelands keepers Westwood and Randolf play in the Championship.
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No, skill fitness and talent doesn't evaporate. But its all about where you are regularly plying your trade, where you are most often being tested. Elite players like Ronaldo are the best because they are the most talented, and they drive themselves to be the best against the best. Sure they'll drop down sometimes and play against a milkman or a scotch. But they're the best because they nearly always play against the best - thats their level.

Robson Kanu scored one great goal at the Euros. Whats he done since ? I got a hole in one at golf once - doesn't make me Jordan Speith does it. And Ireland pick Championship goalkeepers because thats all they've got these days. None of them are considered good enough for the Premier League.
 




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