Do you believe Hughton can put together a top 6 side?

Acker79 · Apr 26, 2015

GT49er said:
But that Newcastle team was absolutely sh*t when he took over. They were one of the sh*ttest teams in the PL and were deservedly relegated.
There were some good players in the team, but it wasn't functioning as a team; also it had previously been managed by a top ex-footballer who turned out to be not a very good manager. Sounds familiar?

there are two issues in this.

1) You're essentially saying here that the problem with newcastle wasn't the personnel, but the way they were being used, leading to them underperforming. Which indicates with the right manager they are at least a decent prem side, but when Hughton took over they relegated, so he was competing in the championship with a premier league side he was managing to get playing to their potential. I don't think we have a premier league side that was simply being misused by Hyypia. I think we had a poor side that Hyypia was unable to get more out of, though wasn't as bad as people think. Hyypia's loss percentage iss lower than Hughton's (Hughton has lost 10 of 21 (likely to go to 11 or 22), Hyypia lost 9 of 22), and his goals scored/game is higher than Hughtons. All of our points against the current bottom four were won under Hyypia. In time, I believe people will realise Hyypia wasn't as much of the problem as most people seem to currently think he was. Whether it is just 3 or 4 players needed to turn us into a better side, or a complete overhaul, our squad still needs work and that is the biggest issue this season. So, I'm not convinced the comparison your hinting at is all that accurate.

2) You talk about Hughton's abilities to get the best out of a team that already had great players in it. I'm not questioning that. In fact I am highlighting that and suggesting that has been the basis of his previous championship promotions. I'm questioning whether he has shown that he can build a squad (or improve one - something he needs to do with us). People point to Kayal, but he also okayed, if not sought out, Best, Ledesma and Carayol (the last of who may actually be a good player when he is fully fit and has had a chance to bed in, something he was never going to be/get with us in the short time we had him).

GT49er · Apr 26, 2015

Acker79 said:
there are two issues in this.

1) You're essentially saying here that the problem with newcastle wasn't the personnel, but the way they were being used, leading to them underperforming. Which indicates with the right manager they are at least a decent prem side, but when Hughton took over they relegated, so he was competing in the championship with a premier league side he was managing to get playing to their potential. I don't think we have a premier league side that was simply being misused by Hyypia. I think we had a poor side that Hyypia was unable to get more out of, though wasn't as bad as people think. Hyypia's loss percentage iss lower than Hughton's (Hughton has lost 10 of 21 (likely to go to 11 or 22), Hyypia lost 9 of 22), and his goals scored/game is higher than Hughtons. All of our points against the current bottom four were won under Hyypia. In time, I believe people will realise Hyypia wasn't as much of the problem as most people seem to currently think he was. Whether it is just 3 or 4 players needed to turn us into a better side, or a complete overhaul, our squad still needs work and that is the biggest issue this season. So, I'm not convinced the comparison your hinting at is all that accurate.

2) You talk about Hughton's abilities to get the best out of a team that already had great players in it. I'm not questioning that. In fact I am highlighting that and suggesting that has been the basis of his previous championship promotions. I'm questioning whether he has shown that he can build a squad (or improve one - something he needs to do with us). People point to Kayal, but he also okayed, if not sought out, Best, Ledesma and Carayol (the last of who may actually be a good player when he is fully fit and has had a chance to bed in, something he was never going to be/get with us in the short time we had him).

I don't think I said anything like as much as that!
Simply, I think CH gets unduly downrated on here on the grounds that go something like this: 'Getting Newcastle promoted was handed to him on a plate - all he had to do was turn up, sit in the manager's chair and spout a soundbite for Sky after each match'. Not so - the team was in a right mess when he took them over.
In our case, I think three or four players is what we need (to improve a lot, but not necessarily to the play-offs in his first season) and realistically that is probably what we'll get. If anyone's expecting 8 to 10 quality signings - don't hold your breath! But we do have some decent players here - a good many of them were part of the squad that got to the play-offs last season; Yes, I know we lost 3 or 4 of the best ones last summer, but the rest aren't / weren't rubbish. Better than the ones we got in mostly .... but that's another matter!
As to loans, they're not a stick to beat him with. Best - worth a shot, but didn't come off. Carayol - better than what we've got - worth giving him a few games; he's done OK. Ledesma - took a quick look and never played him again. Looks fair enough.

Acker79 · Apr 26, 2015

GT49er said:
I don't think I said anything like as much as that!

You said "They were one of the sh*ttest teams in the PL and were deservedly relegated. There were some good players in the team, but it wasn't functioning as a team;" If there are good players, but they're not functioning as a team to the point they deserved to be relegated, it follows that the problem wasn't the personnel (there are good players in the team), but way they were being used (not functioning as a team).

As to loans, they're not a stick to beat him with. Best - worth a shot, but didn't come off. Carayol - better than what we've got - worth giving him a few games; he's done OK. Ledesma - took a quick look and never played him again. Looks fair enough.

I've seen several people say something along the lines of "he's made one permanent signing, Kayal, so he must be good". My point wasn't to beat him with the loans, every manager makes signings that don't work out, my point is that the loans can't be ignored. We're not forced to take them on. A choice is made. Either Hughton has no say, which is a worry for the summer, or he had a say and decided they would be worth bringing in and proved to be wrong, and that needs to be in the mix in the discussion about whether he can build a squad for next season.

NooBHA · Apr 26, 2015

GT49er said:
I don't think I said anything like as much as that!
Simply, I think CH gets unduly downrated on here on the grounds that go something like this: 'Getting Newcastle promoted was handed to him on a plate - all he had to do was turn up, sit in the manager's chair and spout a soundbite for Sky after each match'. Not so - the team was in a right mess when he took them over.
In our case, I think three or four players is what we need (to improve a lot, but not necessarily to the play-offs in his first season) and realistically that is probably what we'll get. If anyone's expecting 8 to 10 quality signings - don't hold your breath! But we do have some decent players here - a good many of them were part of the squad that got to the play-offs last season; Yes, I know we lost 3 or 4 of the best ones last summer, but the rest aren't / weren't rubbish. Better than the ones we got in mostly .... but that's another matter!
As to loans, they're not a stick to beat him with. Best - worth a shot, but didn't come off. Carayol - better than what we've got - worth giving him a few games; he's done OK. Ledesma - took a quick look and never played him again. Looks fair enough.

All Newcastle had to do was turn up and CH only had to sit in the dug out............................... Well have a look at their pre season friendly against Leyton Orient where they lost 6 - 1 or 6-0

he had to hunt out the players that didn't try a leg in that game and make sure the ones that stayed were up for the scrap. The Chamionship is not an easy League to get promoted from. Ask Norwich. They kept most of their players from the Premiership and they look like they are going to be in the play offs now

spring hall convert · Apr 26, 2015

I think he can but it'll take a while. We are a long way off a the moment.

Whether he'll get the opportunity to if the level of football doesn't improve, is another thing.

Westdene Wonder · Apr 26, 2015

Who ever is our manager next season should not be expected to lead us to the Premiership,far better to build a team that is comfortable in the Championship and plays in the manner that will keep attendances above 20,000.
Supporters of last seasons promoted teams have endured a miserable time and despite the millions paid out by Sky they will in the coming years experience difficult financial times,the cash will end up with the players and their agents.

GT49er · Apr 26, 2015

Acker79 said:
You said "They were one of the sh*ttest teams in the PL and were deservedly relegated. There were some good players in the team, but it wasn't functioning as a team;" If there are good players, but they're not functioning as a team to the point they deserved to be relegated, it follows that the problem wasn't the personnel (there are good players in the team), but way they were being used (not functioning as a team).

Or possibly that there were some bad apples in the barrel, attitude wise, or that the succession of managers (Keegan, Kinnear and Shearer) had 'lost the dressing room'.

Acker79 said:
I've seen several people say something along the lines of "he's made one permanent signing, Kayal, so he must be good". My point wasn't to beat him with the loans, every manager makes signings that don't work out, my point is that the loans can't be ignored. We're not forced to take them on. A choice is made. Either Hughton has no say, which is a worry for the summer, or he had a say and decided they would be worth bringing in and proved to be wrong, and that needs to be in the mix in the discussion about whether he can build a squad for next season.

The level of care between signing someone on a deal and taking a player on a short term loan is different. If giving someone a two or three year deal, you've got to be pretty certain (but even the best managers get that wrong sometimes (Alex Ferguson - Juan Sebastian Veron for example), but if you are talking about a short term loan, it's different. All it's going to cost is a proportion of their wages for a few weeks (OK, that's probably a fortune to you and I , but to a football club with a £20M playing budget it's peanuts) so there's no problem in saying, well, he MIGHT be OK, and then sending him back when he isn't (Ledesma, and hopefully Best) or when he's done the job for which he was brought in (Carayol as a winger because we'd sold so many, and those that were left were injured or not really up to starting matches).
I still think he'll do OK. After all, all any manager can do is get the best out of what he's got, and there's plenty of evidence to show that he has done that in the past.

GreersElbow · Apr 27, 2015

Cherry picking facts, distorting then presenting them as cold hard facts of life is NSC's speciality.

Notice how Acker ignores Birmingham and what Hughton did with them?

Acker79 · Apr 27, 2015

GreersElbow said:
Cherry picking facts, distorting then presenting them as cold hard facts of life is NSC's speciality.

Notice how Acker ignores Birmingham and what Hughton did with them?

No, I didn't notice that, what with the paragraph about Birmingham.

Acker79 said:
I think this is a good question.

People point to his promotion successes with Newcastle and Birmingham, but Newcastle were a Premier league team who had been relegated. His Newcastle team had Andy Carrol, Joey Barton, Kevin Nolan, Peter Loverkrands, Coloccini, Marlon Harewood, Guittierez, (all signed before he became caretaker)

At Birmingham, he again had a side just relegated from the Premier League (and league cup winners), a side that included Andros Townsend, Zigic, Chris Wood, Cameron Jerome, and Marlon King. His list of signings don't look too notable to me.

Clearly he can do a job when he has a good squad. He can get them playing exciting football, and get them promoted back to the division they were in the season before he took over.

He took over a premier league Norwich, and that appears to be where he started to get a reputation as negative. But weren't there mitigating circumstances? They were Norwich in the premier league. They needed to survive and their best chances were not playing expansive attacking football as their team isn't good enough to challenge, and because the man Hughton brought in to score goals, wasn't scoring any.

Is that a sign that he isn't necessarily good enough to build a squad but can get a great one working? Is it just that he can't pick a goal scorer? Were there other influences that prevented him singing a proper goal scorer at norwich? Would they have played more entertaining football if they had a scorer?

Does it mean that it isn't just a case of whether or not the board back him in the summer?

GT49er focused the conversation on Newcastle.

GreersElbow · Apr 27, 2015

Acker79 said:
No, I didn't notice that, what with the paragraph about Birmingham.

GT49er focused the conversation on Newcastle.

I stand well corrected, I apologise!

TSB · Apr 29, 2016

I reckon so.

Petee · Apr 29, 2016

Yes vote here!

Gwylan · Apr 29, 2016

It's amazing the amount of negativity towards Hughton at the back end of last season. We laugh at the 442 prediction of relegation but there were a large number of our own supporters who thought we'd struggle

ManOfSussex · Apr 29, 2016

Call me an optimist, but I reckon Hughton might even put together a top 2 side.

Gullflyinghigh · Apr 29, 2016

Nah, he's clearly very dull with no idea what he's doing.

Should've gone for someone with PASSION like Di Canio.

Normal Rob · Apr 29, 2016

LOL - i just voted 'no' thinking it was talking about next year were we to go up.

FAIL!

super-seagulls · Apr 29, 2016

Normal Rob said:
LOL - i just voted 'no' thinking it was talking about next year were we to go up.

FAIL!

Even with the answer right in front of you, you still manage to f*ck it up!
:lolol:

Return of the Rev · Apr 29, 2016

Rookie said:
As the title says.

Despite not having the greatest assets to work with I have been very underwhelmed with what Hughton has done so far. I don't think his only job would have been survival, I'm sure bloom and the board would have expected a bit more than 5th bottom.
Obviously still early days and will need a summer of rebuilding, but his refusal to use the youth players while continuing with the same loan players who failed week in week out doesn't bode well for me.

I'm expecting top 4 tbh

Diego Napier · Apr 29, 2016

TSB said:
I reckon so.

Another great bounce [MENTION=267]TSB[/MENTION]! Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?
All that negativity! The board backed the manager and he didn't need to spend a fortune to put us where we are. C'mon lads give us a wave :wave:

Norman Baker suck my lozenge said:
I think Hughton is capable but our board simply does not have ambition,to much penny pinching and fannying around,players know that this club is NOT the place to come and further their career,a loyal season ticket fan base has been taken for mugs.
Bottom 3 next season,nailed on.

Muzzy said:
Not under the current regime. The foundations for success are built from a stable environment. We had that when we first came up from league 1. We have gone backwards since losing THAT game against THEM!!! Chris needs support from TB that I don't believe will be forthcoming in the immediate future.
A bit of honesty about the club's true ambitions being one thing that should be made public. At the moment us 'customers' are having the wool pulled over our eyes.

Icy Gull said:
Nope and I doubt he'll get the backing to get the quality of players required to challenge. More of the same next season IMO.

Mouldy Boots said:
No anyone that plays Leon best with his attitude and also puts Greer in a three man defence has got zero chance IMO.

Frutos said:
He can, but I have a horrible feeling he won't be given the resources to do so.

whosthedaddy said:
Easy answer to that one is...NO, not in one summer transfer window anyway.

If players were made of bricks and mortar then Tony B would have no issue spending the required dosh, as it is...No

Superphil said:
No.

jamie the seagull said:
1 win in our last 10 matches.....played the same formation throughout....hardly entertaining either..will there be 3 worse teams next year?

Bwian said:
He has shown nothing in half a season to suggest he can motivate players enough to get us into the top six/ two. Not the man we need to get us promoted. He had 2 games to evaluate players and who did he play? Carayol FFS! I hope that wasn't a 'let's see what he can do before we make a bid' look.

AlbionPics&SouthCoastTwit said:
Hughton has the ability but it would be way too expensive for Bloom & the Board. I said "no."

Ernest said:
We need a whole new spine of a team, centre half to replace Upson, creative midfield to replace Bridcutt/Buckley and strikers to replace Barnes/Ulloa and that won't come cheap

Steve in Japan said:
Unfortunately I don't think he can. CH is by nature an extremely cautious coach, I think he will keep us in the Championship but lacks the flair to get promotion. More critically, I don't think he will get much financial support to rebuild.

neilbard said:
I'm afraid not we are running the playing side of the club on a shoestring! Supporters Premier league! Stadium Premier league! Players Div 1 at best! We are a small club with no ambition at the moment!

lizard said:
I think he is capable of building a top six side given the financial support, so answered yes. However doubt he'll get this support.
Under the constraints of a pretty dire starting squad and my prediction of little further investment this summer, in turn hampered by the fact that we aren't the same attractive club we were a couple of years ago to potential players. I think we will end up with a few freebie journey men, a couple of past it ex-internationals that just want an easy payday and a random selection of premier cast offs in the form of loans.
Please Tony, prove me wrong!
The way forward may well be our youth set-up, I just hope we can maintain our Championship status while we wait for a dozen little Messi's to emerge.

NooBHA · Apr 29, 2016

To be honest, I don't hold anything against the people who said No early on because I think Chris himself knows that it has been hard to do. I expected about 5th to 8th and I am surprised by how well he has done. I thought it would take him 2 seasons to put together such a good side

That said he really puts the work in and his man management skills obviously helps. This is a 'work in progress'' and that never stops. He loves the work he does and that's why he often gets success - I hope its Promotion success but even if it isn't then I know for sure that next year it will be but even this year it is their for grabs and he and the players have the ability to grab it

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