Jeremy Corbyn.

Castello · Jul 30, 2015

BLOCK F said:
Castello, I can only but admire your political studiousness, regardless of the fact that our politics differ. Whilst I do not pretend to be, in any way,a student of politics, I have to say, that rather than Labour paying the price for ignoring the issues the nationalists campaigned on, they came unstuck because a.) Ed Milliband was not seen as PM material b.) Labour were deemed incapable of running the economy c.) the anti business and leftie rhetoric scared, not only industry bosses,
but, many ordinary people as well. d.) lacklustre shadow cabinet bods.etc.etc.I could go on.
By all means,let the country have the debate and let politicos mull over what they wish, but the fact remains that the Labour party remains at risk of renting itself assunder and therefore being incapable of acting as an effective opposition in Parliament.......that is the danger for the majority of Labour supporters and the country.

In fairness It would be ignorant to suggest that there weren't a number of factors that determine voting behaviour. However If you read my posts you will see I am not really talking about winning elections. I am talking about living in a democracy that debates and discusses issues rather than issuing sound bites and negative photos of someone eating a bacon sandwich. What I and others have been saying. is that an increasingly large number of people agree with us. They are not all left wing. but I do believe they would all be appalled by this:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...labour-leader-who-cares-about-the-grassroots/

This is the cynical views of blairites and all the machine politicians leading the mainstream parties. Cameron and Osborne are no better. There are tories who are.

BLOCK F · Jul 30, 2015

Castello said:
In fairness It would be ignorant to suggest that there weren't a number of factors that determine voting behaviour. However If you read my posts you will see I am not really talking about winning elections. I am talking about living in a democracy that debates and discusses issues rather than issuing sound bites and negative photos of someone eating a bacon sandwich. What I and others have been saying. is that an increasingly large number of people agree with us. They are not all left wing. but I do believe they would all be appalled by this:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...labour-leader-who-cares-about-the-grassroots/

This is the cynical views of blairites and all the machine politicians leading the mainstream parties. Cameron and Osborne are no better. There are tories who are.

Yes, I read this article. Think it was in the weekend press.
I have read one or two of your posts, but life is too short to spend time ploughing through 50 + Jeremy Corbyn pages!
I do agree that issues should be debated and discussed and if the Labour Party believes that Corbyn has the right policies to lead the party and is capable of taking the country with him,then so be it.If they can't agree that is the case, then they should elect somebody else and let Corbyn go his own way.
To most supporters on the left and right of politics, to win power is a pretty fundamental aim and I am led to believe' politics is a dirty business',so I fear we are stuck with bacon sandwiches for some time. Tiresome, but there we are. Without power, one can discuss all one likes, but in the meantime, someone has to run the country in the real world.

BLOCK F · Jul 30, 2015

Castello said:
can I also point out that if you are a member of an affiliated trade union such as Unite, GMB or CWU and others you get to register as a supporter for free. Unison members get to register free if they are pay the affiliated political levy ( or whatever they call it now). Look on your unions website for a form.

'You don't get me, I'm part of the union' ..................Strawbs 1973.
Hmm,look where that got the country and how it ended for Labour in 1979.

beorhthelm · Jul 30, 2015

Castello said:
...I have yet to hear a more credible explanation than the one I have advanced. Indeed much of this is accepted. You can analyse the results any way you like. but to refute my explanation you really will have to come up with a more detailed explanation than the one you did. I fully accept I can be wrong, but some concrete supporting evidence please.

i feel this makes too literal analysis of the numbers voting, and leads to a conclusion that only Nationalists gained, which is true on these numbers. however the results in parliament were due to the Liberal collapse - doesnt matter where the votes went. Tories swept through the south and south west in a way no one expected. SNP didnt gain a single seat from Conservatives, all gains were from the Labour and Liberals. so the conclusion I'd draw is that Nationalists and the center right gained, and it follows there isnt as a large a movement away from the mainstream as some like. the numbers dont show where the Liberals went, given their general politics i find it hard to believe they wandered off to UKIP/SNP in significant numbers. (yes pure deduction, but i think we can all accept this probability.)

and to draw this back to Corbyn, i don't believe people are shifting to the Left in supporting him, the perennial left is seeking to reclaim its party. is this at the cost of many in the center left who have been conspicuously quiet, not showing any enthusiasm for the other candidates. will we see a "quiet Blairite" (for want of a better term to wrap around a lot of views) group come out in the final vote and back Cooper or Burnham? i do observe a coincidence of people assured there would be a big Labour result, even a win, who are now certain Corbyn is the man.

Castello · Jul 30, 2015

beorhthelm said:
i feel this makes too literal analysis of the numbers voting, and leads to a conclusion that only Nationalists gained, which is true on these numbers. however the results in parliament were due to the Liberal collapse - doesnt matter where the votes went. Tories swept through the south and south west in a way no one expected. SNP didnt gain a single seat from Conservatives, all gains were from the Labour and Liberals. so the conclusion I'd draw is that Nationalists and the center right gained, and it follows there isnt as a large a movement away from the mainstream as some like. the numbers dont show where the Liberals went, given their general politics i find it hard to believe they wandered off to UKIP/SNP in significant numbers. (yes pure deduction, but i think we can all accept this probability.)

and to draw this back to Corbyn, i don't believe people are shifting to the Left in supporting him, the perennial left is seeking to reclaim its party. is this at the cost of many in the center left who have been conspicuously quiet, not showing any enthusiasm for the other candidates. will we see a "quiet Blairite" (for want of a better term to wrap around a lot of views) group come out in the final vote and back Cooper or Burnham? i do observe a coincidence of people assured there would be a big Labour result, even a win, who are now certain Corbyn is the man.

you are free to reinterpret the stats any way you wish. In the end its irrelevent. I have made my point you have made yours. lets leave it at that and let reality takes its course.

Gwylan · Jul 30, 2015

Castello said:
They are not all left wing. but I do believe they would all be appalled by this:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...labour-leader-who-cares-about-the-grassroots/
This is the cynical views of blairites and all the machine politicians leading the mainstream parties. Cameron and Osborne are no better. There are tories who are.

Only just seen this. That McTernan is some piece of work. What's interesting there is the support for Corbyn from Spectator readers, not his natural constituency. There may not much support for his politics but a recognition of his honesty and integrity - I do think that counts for a lot.

There's one comment that could almost have been written by me as it's very much in line with what I believe. "Like his boss, McTernan has refused to move with the times. He's still stuck in 1999 when the average voter owned their home, could save a little money if they chose to and had a steady job. Voters with things like that to protect tend not to vote for radical socialists. On the other hand, when someone has a postgraduate degree, works 40 hours a week in a traditional profession and can't buy a house or save a pension, they might view the world a bit differently. Labour has failed to provide answers to generation Y who have studied hard and worked hard but been denied the rewards enjoyed by previous generations, which is why they're now putting their faith in the hard left."

The only thing I disagree with is the description of Corbyn as hard left. In 1983, he'd be pretty much mainstream Labour, to the left perhaps, but no Militant. It's a sign of how much the centre has shifted

Castello · Jul 30, 2015

Gwylan said:
Only just seen this. That McTernan is some piece of work. What's interesting there is the support for Corbyn from Spectator readers, not his natural constituency. There may not much support for his politics but a recognition of his honesty and integrity - I do think that counts for a lot.

There's one comment that could almost have been written by me as it's very much in line with what I believe. "Like his boss, McTernan has refused to move with the times. He's still stuck in 1999 when the average voter owned their home, could save a little money if they chose to and had a steady job. Voters with things like that to protect tend not to vote for radical socialists. On the other hand, when someone has a postgraduate degree, works 40 hours a week in a traditional profession and can't buy a house or save a pension, they might view the world a bit differently. Labour has failed to provide answers to generation Y who have studied hard and worked hard but been denied the rewards enjoyed by previous generations, which is why they're now putting their faith in the hard left."

The only thing I disagree with is the description of Corbyn as hard left. In 1983, he'd be pretty much mainstream Labour, to the left perhaps, but no Militant. It's a sign of how much the centre has shifted

I agree Jeremy Corbyn would have been on the left of the party, but he clearly is a Labour party person.

I remember about 4 years ago we had John McDonnell ( a friend and close ally of Jeremy Corbyn's) come and speak to my Unite branch when I was the branch chair. He was being asked questions about his views of the labour party and replying in a fairly openly critical way of the direction they were going. I asked him, in view of his clear differences with the mainstream labour party why did he stay in. His answer was that he enjoys being a constituency MP. He works hard for his constituents ( which I know he does), he believes that they are helped by having an MP committed to them. He couldn't do this with any other party.

That to me is what I would want from my MP, to stand up for the views and interests of the people he represents. Everything I've seen about Corbyn shows the same sense of decency and loyalty to those who vote for him.

Compare that to the blairites and you sense a group of people whos only loyalty is to their political careers.I can understand why, because theyve never done a real days work in their lives, and would struggle to find a real job. But it isn't what I'd want from an MP.

Gwylan · Jul 30, 2015

Where has this idea that anyone can join Labour for £3 and vote in the election come from? I've just had a look at the website and it's £3.88 a month - that's £46.56 a year. It's not a huge amount but it's a long way from the £3 that I keep seeing quoted in the press

EDIT: Just found it. You don't actually join the party, you become a registered supporter

beorhthelm · Jul 30, 2015

Seagull27 said:
EDIT: To put this another way, the three main stream parties (Tories, Labour, Lib Dems) total votes:

2010:
26,172,965
88.1%

2015
23,097,742
75.2%

That's quite a large shift away from the mainstream to me. It just isn't represented by our FPTP system.

this does put it more clearly. it crystlises that losses of the Liberals (4,420,386) are greater than the loses to the mainstream parties together (3,075,223). in fact Labour gained 740,787 votes, which considering the loss of ~300k in Scotland is a pretty surprising turn up. which all goes to show... there are an awful lot of numbers, that dont tell us much with any certainty.

Titanic · Jul 31, 2015

ComRes opinion poll (30th Jul 2015):

Latest voting intention:

Con 40% (+1)
Lab 28% (+1)
LD 7% (-2)
UKIP 10% (-1)
SNP 5% (NC)
Green 5% (-1)
Other 4% (+1)

http://comres.co.uk/polls/daily-mail-political-poll

Herr Tubthumper · Jul 31, 2015

Titanic said:
ComRes opinion poll (30th Jul 2015):

Latest voting intention:

Con 40% (+1)
Lab 28% (+1)
LD 7% (-2)
UKIP 10% (-1)
SNP 5% (NC)
Green 5% (-1)
Other 4% (+1)

http://comres.co.uk/polls/daily-mail-political-poll

It's May all over again.

Vegas Seagull · Jul 31, 2015

'Never seen anything like it. The enthusiasm and energy for Jeremy's campaign is incredible' said Ken Livingstone who led a monster group of 136 outbound callers drumming up support in London last night

seagullsovergrimsby · Jul 31, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
It's May all over again.

Horton's halftime iceberg · Jul 31, 2015

Gwylan said:
Where has this idea that anyone can join Labour for £3 and vote in the election come from? I've just had a look at the website and it's £3.88 a month - that's £46.56 a year. It's not a huge amount but it's a long way from the £3 that I keep seeing quoted in the press

EDIT: Just found it. You don't actually join the party, you become a registered supporter

I think its part of the one person one vote idea, they want people to be involved, I get a vote through being in an affiliated union, although I had to go onto their website to opt in, where as last time I just got sent the papers.

Anyone who has Union membership should check online/rep/call office to see that they will get a vote of eligible as its the Union no longer gets the block vote.

seagullsovergrimsby · Jul 31, 2015

Castello said:
can I also point out that if you are a member of an affiliated trade union such as Unite, GMB or CWU and others you get to register as a supporter for free. Unison members get to register free if they are pay the affiliated political levy ( or whatever they call it now). Look on your unions website for a form.

The CWU has only indicated their preferred candidate for its membership to consider , it isn't a 200,000 block vote that is credited to Corbyn. As a member of the GMB I had to register to be eligible to vote so all union members are not automatically given a right to vote as it is an opt in process.

Gwylan · Jul 31, 2015

Horton's halftime iceberg said:
Anyone who has Union membership should check online/rep/call office to see that they will get a vote of eligible as its the Union no longer gets the block vote.

Not quite true: you have to membership of a union affiliated to the Labour Party. I'm a union member but don't have a vote that way. I am thinking of becoming a registered supporter though

spring hall convert · Jul 31, 2015

BLOCK F said:
'You don't get me, I'm part of the union' ..................Strawbs 1973.
Hmm,look where that got the country and how it ended for Labour in 1979.

And look where de-regulated banks got us in 2008. Neither system is perfect.

spring hall convert · Jul 31, 2015

I see Jack Straw (last seen offering cash for access) has joined Tony Blair (last seen doing PR for murderous dictators) in denouncing Corbyn.

I suppose it's pretty fitting that barely any of the Blairites are still in politics and instead are filling their pockets wherever and whenever they can. If they want to lecture the Labour Party membership, why not stand again?

Herr Tubthumper · Jul 31, 2015

spring hall convert said:
I see Jack Straw (last seen offering cash for access) has joined Tony Blair (last seen doing PR for murderous dictators) in denouncing Corbyn.

I suppose it's pretty fitting that barely any of the Blairites are still in politics and instead are filling their pockets wherever and whenever they can. If they want to lecture the Labour Party membership, why not stand again?

I think this seals the Corbyn deal for me.

Horton's halftime iceberg · Jul 31, 2015

Gwylan said:
Not quite true: you have to membership of a union affiliated to the Labour Party. I'm a union member but don't have a vote that way. I am thinking of becoming a registered supporter though

Thats why its worth checking as the changes mean you may not get an automatic vote.

This is a good piece on JC! I was taken by the women at the end who had seen both JC and Andy Burnham speak.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti.../jeremy-corbyn-effect-labour-leadership-video

Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

Jeremy Corbyn.

Castello

Well-known member

Well-known member

A. Virgo, Football Genius

Castello

Well-known member

Castello

Well-known member

A. Virgo, Football Genius

Super Moderator

Well-known member

New member

#cpfctinpotclub

Blooming Marvellous

#cpfctinpotclub

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Blooming Marvellous

Share this page