Should the Norman Bettison book be banned?

hans kraay fan club · Oct 17, 2016

Neville's Breakfast said:
The same logic could be applied to religious books produced by the main religions. At times of religious tension there could equally be protest at the distasteful and unsavory content (the advent of the internet has given every sad case campaigner a wonderful platform with which to get organized). The answer wouldn't be a ban.

No it couldn't. Why would a book about / promoting one of the 'main religions' be sure to sell no copies? I'm not advocating the store declining to sell something provocative. I'm suggesting that their choice to not stock this book in Liverpool, can be viewed purely as a sane business decision.

edna krabappel · Oct 17, 2016

Tooting Gull said:
But I was interested hearing others' views on where they do/don't think the free speech line lies in this case.

Well if anybody is that keen to read it, then presumably they could go on to Amazon and order it without any issues whatsoever, whether they live on Merseyside or not, or go to another town's bookshop and buy one, so I don't think any free speech guidelines have been crossed.

Tooting Gull · Oct 17, 2016

Triggaaar said:
I understand that's what you wanted to discuss, but others are discussing the banning of books in general, and the thing most of us have against that is that what don't want to end free speech.

They haven't banned it, they've chosen not to sell it. Do all bookstores sell all books? No, of course not, so what difference does in make if this one store doesn't sell this one book?

Well here's my view: free speech means that the book should be available somewhere, that's all. Just like when our club weren't stocking Dick's book, that wasn't a great infringement on civil liberties.

Fair enough, have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Waterstone's have banned it in Liverpool, 'chosen not to stock' is semantics as someone else said. And while it wasn't me that raised the Dick Knight book, I think it was a big mistake of the club not to stock that one. It wasn't a 'great infringement on civil liberties', but it was a poor decision. Club bigger than individuals, fans were interested in Knight's account even if (like me) they didn't agree with all of it.

Neville's Breakfast · Oct 17, 2016

hans kraay fan club said:
No it couldn't. Why would a book about / promoting one of the 'main religions' be sure to sell no copies? I'm not advocating the store declining to sell something provocative. I'm suggesting that their choice to not stock this book in Liverpool, can be viewed purely as a sane business decision.

You may be right though I would be surprised if everyone in Liverpool takes the same view on this or any other subject. Even if they do then some may still wish to read the opposing view. It's a bit like being at University and reading around the subject. There are many people who don't feel emotionally involved and just want to hear all sides to the story even if they have already made up their minds. A bit like reading Mein Kampf even though horrified by the Nazis. I just wonder whether the bookshop caved in a little.

Tooting Gull · Oct 17, 2016

Neville's Breakfast said:
You may be right though I would be surprised if everyone in Liverpool takes the same view on this or any other subject. Even if they do then some may still wish to read the opposing view. It's a bit like being at University and reading around the subject. There are many people who don't feel emotionally involved and just want to hear all sides to the story even if they have already made up their minds. A bit like reading Mein Kampf even though horrified by the Nazis. I just wonder whether the bookshop caved in a little.

These days you can save yourself the trouble of reading Mein Kampf by just listening to some Tory conference speeches...

Neville's Breakfast · Oct 17, 2016

Tooting Gull said:
These days you can save yourself the trouble of reading Mein Kampf by just listening to some Tory conference speeches...

Harsh but nevertheless cheaper than buying a book...

Triggaaar · Oct 17, 2016

Tooting Gull said:
Fair enough, have to agree to disagree on this one.

No problem.

I think Waterstone's have banned it in Liverpool, 'chosen not to stock' is semantics as someone else said.

For me the difference between the two is who is making the decision not to sell, and whom that decision affects. If the UK government chooses that the book won't be sold in the UK, that is banning it. If you decide you're not going to sell it, that's just your choice, I wouldn't say you're banning it. The bookshop's choice doesn't affect any other shop and it doesn't stop a single person from buying the book.

And while it wasn't me that raised the Dick Knight book

I just thought of it as a comparison (I see Thunder Bolt thought the same, but I hadn't read that post). Our club didn't sell that book (they say they weren't asked to, so I'm not going to assume otherwise) and I wouldn't class that as banning a book either.

Tooting Gull · Oct 17, 2016

Triggaaar said:
No problem.
For me the difference between the two is who is making the decision not to sell, and whom that decision affects. If the UK government chooses that the book won't be sold in the UK, that is banning it. If you decide you're not going to sell it, that's just your choice, I wouldn't say you're banning it. The bookshop's choice doesn't affect any other shop and it doesn't stop a single person from buying the book.

I just thought of it as a comparison (I see Thunder Bolt thought the same, but I hadn't read that post). Our club didn't sell that book (they say they weren't asked to, so I'm not going to assume otherwise) and I wouldn't class that as banning a book either.

I suppose where I'm slightly coming from is that you do need to hear from these people, even if only to shoot it down. When people look back at the whole Hillsborough tragedy in the future, it could be that the Bettison book is quite 'important' if only to highlight the general state of denial about their culpability within the police. Just last year on holiday a Hillsborough copper staying in the same appartment pretty much broke down and spilled out his version of events, someone who gave evidence to the new inquests. I was pretty shocked about his views and defence of Duckenfield still after all these years, and thought he was deluded. But I can't in all honesty say I wasn't interested. It's just up to you to filter out the rubbish.

Jam The Man · Oct 17, 2016

I sense a pulping along the lines of Partridge's 'Bouncing Back' is likely...

Thunder Bolt · Oct 17, 2016

Triggaaar said:
No problem.
For me the difference between the two is who is making the decision not to sell, and whom that decision affects. If the UK government chooses that the book won't be sold in the UK, that is banning it. If you decide you're not going to sell it, that's just your choice, I wouldn't say you're banning it. The bookshop's choice doesn't affect any other shop and it doesn't stop a single person from buying the book.

I just thought of it as a comparison (I see Thunder Bolt thought the same, but I hadn't read that post). Our club didn't sell that book (they say they weren't asked to, so I'm not going to assume otherwise) and I wouldn't class that as banning a book either.

It's not like Liverpool council are banning bookshops from selling it, and Waterstones are not the only booksellers in the city.

Neville's Breakfast · Oct 17, 2016

Thunder Bolt said:
It's not like Liverpool council are banning bookshops from selling it, and Waterstones are not the only booksellers in the city.

Do we know what prompted the Waterstones decision ? If it is some sort of campaign then this could be seen as a success and next stop would likely be other bookshops and perhaps the Council. If however it was a unilateral business decision then [MENTION=3566]hans kraay fan club[/MENTION] may be right. In that case then Waterstones should have not stocked it a little more quietly rather than making a song and dance of it.

Worried Man Blues · Oct 17, 2016

Trouble with banning is it makes it more popular, best thing is to buy it stick it on you tube so no one else buys it.

SAC · Oct 17, 2016

Worried Man Blues said:
Trouble with banning is it makes it more popular, best thing is to buy it stick it on you tube so no one else buys it.

Can you put books on You Tube?

Buzzer · Oct 17, 2016

Tooting Gull said:
These days you can save yourself the trouble of reading Mein Kampf by just listening to some Tory conference speeches...

And the chapters dealing specifically with the "Jewish Problem" can be covered at a fair few Labour Fringe meetings and Labour councillor Twitter feeds.

Neville's Breakfast · Oct 17, 2016

Worried Man Blues said:
Trouble with banning is it makes it more popular, best thing is to buy it stick it on you tube so no one else buys it.

The proceeds are going to charity though...
Interesting moral conundrum. We shouldn't be threatened by ideas.

Worried Man Blues · Oct 17, 2016

I haven't a clue, I would mention blogs but still don't know what I'm am talking about but some web type jobby

SAC said:
Can you put books on You Tube?

Sussexscots · Oct 17, 2016

Buzzer said:
And the chapters dealing specifically with the "Jewish Problem" can be covered at a fair few Labour Fringe meetings and Labour councillor Twitter feeds.

Agree.
If you want to find Anti-Semitic tropes in the press and politics, it's not first the Tories one should be looking at.

Tooting Gull · Oct 17, 2016

Buzzer said:
And the chapters dealing specifically with the "Jewish Problem" can be covered at a fair few Labour Fringe meetings and Labour councillor Twitter feeds.

It seems you are now branded anti-semitic if you dare to question any aspect of Israel's foreign policy. Not quite what the phrase originally meant, it has to be said.

Buzzer · Oct 17, 2016

Tooting Gull said:
It seems you are now branded anti-semitic if you dare to question any aspect of Israel's foreign policy. Not quite what the phrase originally meant, it has to be said.

I know. What's the world coming to when you can't post pictures of Jewish bankers with hook noses, reference the Rothschilds and claim Jewish NWO conspiracies without being called Anti-Semitic? Political correctness gone mad.

Tooting Gull · Oct 17, 2016

Buzzer said:
I know. What's the world coming to when you can't post pictures of Jewish bankers with hook noses, reference the Rothschilds and claim Jewish NWO conspiracies without being called Anti-Semitic? Political correctness gone mad.

I understand why you can't deal with the foreign policy point sensibly. There is no good answer. You won't get any arguments from me about ridding the world of xenophobia, racism and blind prejudice. Though I have never seen more of it in this country than the last six months.

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