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Southern Rail STRIKE details



Deadly Danson

Deadly Danson

Well-known member
Oct 22, 2003
4,003
Brighton
beorhthelm said:
you could put a camera on each carriage to ensure better vision than the guard can have, and have a procedure that you cant power up until doors are closed. i have more faith in the ability of drivers to check a camera, see no one is there, shut the door, check doors shut, then engage the accelerator than other here seem to have. they seem to operate the rest of the train safely enough.
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Theres is already a camera on each carriage and already you can't take power without doors (in theory ) being closed. The point again being that the cameras can't see anyone running for the train and it's very difficult to see if anything small such as child has fallen between train and platform. Not to mention the fact that the driver needs to be concentrating on driving the train safely not scanning up and down a line of 12 or more cameras. Very easy to be so concentrating on ensuring everyone is safely onboard and then go straight through a red signal. A human halfway down the train who can scan the full area, speak or shout at the passengers and can hear any commotion going on has to be the best way of safely dispatching a train and even then I would argue that the gradual removal of platform staff from stations over the years has made even this less safe.
 








Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
55,744
Back in Sussex
The Albion Roar said:
It will follow that those trains which do run will be overcrowded. This will be compounded by the point that at London Road Station, where there are no station staff, there will be people trying to get on a very crowded train. Sometimes, and it has happened this season just gone, some very tight squashing is required, or people have to wait for the next train - assuming there will be one.

The conductors have been extremely cautious in making sure everyone is OK before closing the doors and moving off. My point is - at what point will a driver be able to make a decision (unless he leaves his cab) as to when to stop people from trying to get on the train, and be able to close the doors safely and move off...?

Worrying.
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I largely disagree with all of that...

1. The organisation at Brighton - loading up a platform in line with the capacity of the next train - is such that overcrowding shouldn't be any more likely to happen than it has to date. And it hasn't. Yes, trains will leave busy, but they always have done on match days.

2. At London Road and Moulescoomb, to my eye, it has always been 'every man for themselves'. People squeeze on wherever they can. I've never seen any guard/conductor/whatever the hell they are called checking that everyone is OK before leaving.

The two real points of concern for match days are:

1. Should cancellations continue in their current volume, then there will be a shortage of trains to get people to games. People will miss out regularly.

2. Because of 1, it could get pretty feisty in the queueing system at Brighton Station.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,310
Deadly Danson said:
Theres is already a camera on each carriage and already you can't take power without doors (in theory ) being closed. The point again being that the cameras can't see anyone running for the train and it's very difficult to see if anything small such as child has fallen between train and platform. Not to mention the fact that the driver needs to be concentrating on driving the train safely not scanning up and down a line of 12 or more cameras. Very easy to be so concentrating on ensuring everyone is safely onboard and then go straight through a red signal. A human halfway down the train who can scan the full area, speak or shout at the passengers and can hear any commotion going on has to be the best way of safely dispatching a train and even then I would argue that the gradual removal of platform staff from stations over the years has made even this less safe.
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im confused at this point, door operation is when stationary, or are you saying a driver will be so consumed by the next forthcoming door operation they are unable to concentrate on the current signals? im also unsure why a driver cant see a commotion and not shut the door until its clear, or unclear what you think conductors do when they here/see someone running for the train - unless its one of the infrequent stops stations, they do not hold the doors in my observations.

the more i hear from you of how terribly difficult and dangerous it will be for the driver, the more i thinks its probably better to keep the guard and remove the driver. the whole driving system could be easily automated. it will begin to look archaic to have drivers in a controlled environment of rail when there are autonomous cars on the uncontrolled, irregular, road environment. keep the guard for safety and remove the driver for safety seems to message here.
 




Tom Hark Preston Park

Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
70,192
Bozza said:
1. Should cancellations continue in their current volume, then there will be a shortage of trains to get people to games. People will miss out regularly.

2. Because of 1, it could get pretty feisty in the queueing system at Brighton Station.
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Until the current situation with the trains is sorted, it's going to have a devastating effect on midweek match attendances. Even in the unlikely case that SASTA can deliver a service to get most people from home/work to the stadium in time for kick-off, who on earth is going to trust them to lay on a service to take people home again, if they live any further away than, say, Brighton or Lewes? They can barely do that on a non-match day with normal numbers of passengers at the moment. At current levels of SASTA service there would be thousands of people left stranded far from home late at night. Who in their right mind would want to risk that?
 


Deadly Danson

Deadly Danson

Well-known member
Oct 22, 2003
4,003
Brighton
beorhthelm said:
im confused at this point, door operation is when stationary, or are you saying a driver will be so consumed by the next forthcoming door operation they are unable to concentrate on the current signals? im also unsure why a driver cant see a commotion and not shut the door until its clear, or unclear what you think conductors do when they here/see someone running for the train - unless its one of the infrequent stops stations, they do not hold the doors in my observations.

the more i hear from you of how terribly difficult and dangerous it will be for the driver, the more i thinks its probably better to keep the guard and remove the driver. the whole driving system could be easily automated. it will begin to look archaic to have drivers in a controlled environment of rail when there are autonomous cars on the uncontrolled, irregular, road environment. keep the guard for safety and remove the driver for safety seems to message here.
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I'm not going to go back and forth any more because you seem desperate to prove it is safer to remove staff from the train and I've explained in detail the reasons why I believe it isn't so we clearly aren't going to agree. I've said before on here - it's not difficult for me to close the doors and I wouldn't want more money to do it but I fundamentally believe it is a significantly less safe method of working and will lead to more accidents.
 


Beach Hut

Beach Hut

Brighton Bhuna Boy
Jul 5, 2003
71,970
Living In a Box
Tom Hark said:
Until the current situation with the trains is sorted, it's going to have a devastating effect on midweek match attendances. Even in the unlikely case that SASTA can deliver a service to get most people from home/work to the stadium in time for kick-off, who on earth is going to trust them to lay on a service to take people home again, if they live any further away than, say, Brighton or Lewes? They can barely do that on a non-match day with normal numbers of passengers at the moment. At current levels of SASTA service there would be thousands of people left stranded far from home late at night. Who in their right mind would want to risk that?
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Looks like no option but driving for night games, see what the first Saturday 15:00 KO is like then take it from there.

The current service will not improve for quite a while
 




beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,310
Deadly Danson said:
I'm not going to go back and forth any more because you seem desperate to prove it is safer to remove staff from the train and I've explained in detail the reasons why I believe it isn't so we clearly aren't going to agree. I've said before on here - it's not difficult for me to close the doors and I wouldn't want more money to do it but I fundamentally believe it is a significantly less safe method of working and will lead to more accidents.
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ive said i'd rather keep the guards, just your contrived arguments against DOO are becoming laughable.
 


Beach Hut

Beach Hut

Brighton Bhuna Boy
Jul 5, 2003
71,970
Living In a Box
Train service completely shafted already today as Brighton station appears to have only just re-opened after a major incident.
 


The Albion Roar

The Albion Roar

97.2FM
Aug 11, 2003
2,728
The Open Market
Bozza said:
2. At London Road and Moulescoomb, to my eye, it has always been 'every man for themselves'. People squeeze on wherever they can. I've never seen any guard/conductor/whatever the hell they are called checking that everyone is OK before leaving.
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The 'every man for themselves' aspect is largely self-regulated - some people don't fancy the squash so will wait for the next one.

My point was - central to the argument here - the conductor, while not getting involved in the 'every man for themselves' aspect, will know when it's safe to close the doors. The driver will have no idea - at least not without getting out of the train to see.
 




Horton's halftime iceberg

Horton's halftime iceberg

Blooming Marvellous
Jan 9, 2005
16,484
Brighton
The Albion Roar said:
The 'every man for themselves' aspect is largely self-regulated - some people don't fancy the squash so will wait for the next one.

My point was - central to the argument here - the conductor, while not getting involved in the 'every man for themselves' aspect, will know when it's safe to close the doors. The driver will have no idea - at least not without getting out of the train to see.
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Thats right, I have seen them shout at people before to get out.
 


Ernest

Ernest

Stupid IDIOT
Nov 8, 2003
42,739
LOONEY BIN
Bozza said:
I largely disagree with all of that...

1. The organisation at Brighton - loading up a platform in line with the capacity of the next train - is such that overcrowding shouldn't be any more likely to happen than it has to date. And it hasn't. Yes, trains will leave busy, but they always have done on match days.

2. At London Road and Moulescoomb, to my eye, it has always been 'every man for themselves'. People squeeze on wherever they can. I've never seen any guard/conductor/whatever the hell they are called checking that everyone is OK before leaving.

The Guard is either in the back cab of a 4 car train or in the middle cab of a 6/8 car train. He wouldn't dare close the doors till they are clear and wouldn't give the right away till the platform interface is safe to do so, this is vital after a Guard was convicted for not doing so and is in Prison.

The two real points of concern for match days are:

1. Should cancellations continue in their current volume, then there will be a shortage of trains to get people to games. People will miss out regularly.

2. Because of 1, it could get pretty feisty in the queueing system at Brighton Station.
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Answered second point as having worked plenty of football trains to the AMEX , you may not see me but the Guard knows exactly what is going on at each stop.

1/ - I can see Southern waving the white flag and doing what they do and closing Falmer , Moulsecoomb and London Rd on 'safety grounds' for match days if things do continue.

2/- The club may have to provide stewards at Brighton Station if the match day train service is to continue to run and run safely for everyone.

I wonder if Paul Barber has had any contact with Southern over this ?
 










thedonkeycentrehalf

thedonkeycentrehalf

Retired
Jul 7, 2003
8,624
Beach Hut said:
Looks like no option but driving for night games, see what the first Saturday 15:00 KO is like then take it from there.

The current service will not improve for quite a while
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Seagull Travel might need to take over Bennetts Field to meet demand for coaches. As for Saturday games, it will be a game of train roulette - let's see who wants to gamble on having one more pint and that there will be a train with space on it available. Don't think I would be risking any train much after 2pm for the time being.
 






B

biddles911

New member
May 12, 2014
348
My view is that GTR have had their chance and should lose their franchise and be replaced as soon as is practical (and the south eastern region broken down into more manageable chunks?) though both are likely to take years rather than months.

Simple question for RMT and those "in the know" on this thread, however.

What happens if RMT "win" this dispute and the conductors/guards remain on the same terms as before? Will it all be back to business as usual?

The arguments in favour of their retention on grounds of safety and other duties rely on the staff carrying out their jobs properly.

My personal observation, as a regular commuter to London, is that many (90%?) do not carry out the job to a proper standard and this view has been supported by a number of other commentators on this thread.

There's also been a common observation that conductors have been much more visible and proactive since the dispute started (coincidence or what?!).

So my question is: will RMT work with Southern Rail management to ensure that their members actually do this vital job properly, if they win the dispute?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 


Ernest

Ernest

Stupid IDIOT
Nov 8, 2003
42,739
LOONEY BIN
biddles911 said:
My view is that GTR have had their chance and should lose their franchise and be replaced as soon as is practical (and the south eastern region broken down into more manageable chunks?) though both are likely to take years rather than months.

Simple question for RMT and those "in the know" on this thread, however.

What happens if RMT "win" this dispute and the conductors/guards remain on the same terms as before? Will it all be back to business as usual?

The arguments in favour of their retention on grounds of safety and other duties rely on the staff carrying out their jobs properly.

My personal observation, as a regular commuter to London, is that many (90%?) do not carry out the job to a proper standard and this view has been supported by a number of other commentators on this thread.

There's also been a common observation that conductors have been much more visible and proactive since the dispute started (coincidence or what?!).

So my question is: will RMT work with Southern Rail management to ensure that their members actually do this vital job properly, if they win the dispute?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

For normal industrial relations to resume, not forgetting ASLEF and the drivers are in dispute too and their refusal to work on their days off is causing far more trains to be cancelled then any other reason, there will need to be a whole scale removal of the managers who have engineered the dispute and the ones such as Horton , Crowther and McCarthy who have been peddling the lies as well as being responsible for all the bullying and harassment of Guards.

With a new management structure in place and a commitment to better industrial relations working could be back to normal in seconds. It has happened before when Connex (Charles Horton as boss again) provoked staff so much they were in the same sort of place as Southern and once the managers causing the problems were removed things were back to normal instantly.
 


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