General Election 2017

Kinky Gerbils said:

Someone has leaked the discussions held about Brexit:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ays-theresa-may-deluded-scathing-call-angela/

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Guinness Boy said:

So it appears that May doesn't have a clue with regards to Brexit and has form for - wait a minute - paying lip service to UK voters before doing a u turn. This whole thread is terrifying. The only scarier thing is the lack of a credible alternative.
https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/858810953353367552

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So, arch-Europhile Juncker wants Brexit not to be a success? Quelle Surprise! And is prepared to make TM's task as difficult as possible at every opportunity, as well as directly contradicting/deriding everything she says? Yes, no surprise there either. Seems as if he's finally realised that Brexit isn't some kind of UK bluff to get a few minor reforms in the EU after all, and his dream of a United States of Europe isn't going to happen. Add to that the fact that the EU will lose some of its ongoing funding (without going into numbers, both leavers and remainers agree that the UK is a net contributor to the EU), and I'm not surprised he's going to be seriously grumpy and uncooperative.

As for Jeremy Cliffe's comments, it's as well to remember that they are made by the Berlin Bureau Chief at The Economist. So just possibly, not a committed Brexiteer then?

GT49er said:

So, arch-Europhile Juncker wants Brexit not to be a success? Quelle Surprise! And is prepared to make TM's task as difficult as possible at every opportunity, as well as directly contradicting/deriding everything she says? Yes, no surprise there either. Seems as if he's finally realised that Brexit isn't some kind of UK bluff to get a few minor reforms in the EU after all, and his dream of a United States of Europe isn't going to happen. Add to that the fact that the EU will lose some of its ongoing funding (without going into numbers, both leavers and remainers agree that the UK is a net contributor to the EU), and I'm not surprised he's going to be seriously grumpy and uncooperative.

As for Jeremy Cliffe's comments, it's as well to remember that they are made by the Berlin Bureau Chief at The Economist. So just possibly, not a committed Brexiteer then?

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The central allegation that she's previously opted back in to EU law would stand as true whether it was made by Junker, Farage or my neighbours cat.

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Guinness Boy said:

The central allegation that she's previously opted back in to EU law would stand as true whether it was made by Junker, Farage or my neighbours cat.

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I think you'll find that the options for a Home Secretary of a country in the EU are very different (specifically much more limited) to the options of a Prime Minister of a country that has left/is leaving the EU (with a mandate from its electorate to do so).

GT49er said:

So, arch-Europhile Juncker wants Brexit not to be a success?

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He did say Brexit cannot be a success. But you're being very selective here, and have omitted and/or over looked a lot context. The context is that one cannot expect club benefits outside the club to be better than those within. Which is simple common sense is it not?

JC Footy Genius said:

I expect the thoroughly progressive forces of loonerati will find a way of not accepting/challenging the outcome while telling us they fully respect the result

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I still do not accept the outcome or respect the result, why should I, believe that leaving is a huge mistake.
If anyone saw the clueless May on Marr or Peston on Sunday they should be very worried.
Typical Tory thinking that we are going to get what we want and everything is going to be rosy, well it isn't.
They will continue to feed the lies and the spin for the public to lap up but it will all come crashing down, but it won't matter because there will be a Tory government with a huge majority.
May has in a short space of time proved herself to be a weak, lying and evil person who is afraid to even face the cameras and debate, and why, because the Tories record is appalling, failed targets, u turns, lies, more debt, schools a mess, NHS a mess.
Usual scaremongering tactics and one strap line of a strong economy, over and over again because they have nothing to be proud of. But all the mugs will lap it up.
It's all about Tory in fighting, nothing to do with the good of the country, this woman cares about nothing except which necklace to wear.
What happened to paying back the deficit, what happened to less debt, what happened to helping the JAMS.
Cuts to kids education, cuts to NHS, massive cuts to councils who are cutting in turn the most essential services to the most needy including children.
If you want to go ahead and vote for nurses queuing at food banks, parents paying for books so that their kids can learn at school, unaffordable housing, more child poverty, working people in more debt than ever, but cuts in corporate tax and million pound houses laid empty for the rich to invest, tax cheats not paying what they should and watching them laugh and gaffaw in the commons, then you go ahead.
But don't forget we have a strong economy.

GT49er said:

Junker is prepared to make TM's task as difficult as possible at every opportunity, as well as directly contradicting/deriding everything she says?

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The UK, well Theresa May, laid down a very clear hard line (spoilt child) marker by saying from the off she will happily walk away from the talks with no deal if she wanted. If you play hard you cannot complain if others do the same. In fact one should expect this.

JC Footy Genius said:

I think The Conservative and Unionist strong and stable party will cope with losing a few seats to the Lib Dems. Fingers crossed the Liberals overachieve big time though as the smaller the Tory majority is the more influence the Brexiteers are likely to have in government. Happy tactical voting everyone.

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Could be more than a few seats though - http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...owed-party-would-lose-seats-liberal-democrats

Herr Tubthumper said:

He did say Brexit cannot be a success. But you're being very selective here, and have omitted and/or over looked a lot context. The context is that one cannot expect club benefits outside the club to be better than those within.

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Not at all. Juncker is obviously in throwing toys out of the pram mode. Of course, relations with EU countries will be different when we are outside the EU - those relations are, quite rightly, the subject of future negotiations. Reasonable people will want to get the best deals for both sides. Some people, sadly, want the negotiations to fail.
Typical behaviour is Juncker's refusal to allow early discussions on the position of British ex-pats abroad and EU nationals in the UK, to bring about an early resolution and an ending to worry and uncertainty for these people.

Herr Tubthumper said:

He did say Brexit cannot be a success. But you're being very selective here, and have omitted and/or over looked a lot context. The context is that one cannot expect club benefits outside the club to be better than those within. Which is simple common sense is it not?

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When has common sense ever been considered by leavers?

Herr Tubthumper said:

The UK, well Theresa May, laid down a very clear hard line (spoilt child) marker by saying from the off she will happily walk away from the talks with no deal if she wanted. If you play hard you cannot complain if others do the same. In fact one should expect this.

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The difference is that the UK position is to negotiate a deal, while warning the EU that we won't just gratefully accept a few odd tit-bits that they might be prepared to give us. Tough negotiations are expected from both sides. That is a reasonable view,
On the other hand, the EU view (or at least Juncker's view) is that he wants the negotiations to fail. That is real spoiled child.

studio150 said:

When has common sense ever been considered by people who cannot accept the fact tat they lost the referendum?

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Corrected for you. There was actually a bit of debate going on here until you decided to wade in with derogatory generalisations.

GT49er said:

Not at all. Juncker is obviously in throwing toys out of the pram mode. Of course, relations with EU countries will be different when we are outside the EU - those relations are, quite rightly, the subject of future negotiations. Reasonable people will want to get the best deals for both sides. Some people, sadly, want the negotiations to fail.
Typical behaviour is Juncker's refusal to allow early discussions on the position of British ex-pats abroad and EU nationals in the UK, to bring about an early resolution and an ending to worry and uncertainty for these people.

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As I said, you're overlooking the context of his comments and reading what you want to read.

And you've done it again with your last point. The EU voted through an agreement in 4 minutes flat that one of the three primary immediate goals is to secure the rights of EU citizens in the uk. He has not refused early discussions at all; in fact the exact opposite. Though he did say it's ridiculous to believe a deal can be done by the end of next month which it is .....especially given May has effectively postponed negotiations for a month due to the election.

GT49er said:

The difference is that the UK position is to negotiate a deal, while warning the EU that we won't just gratefully accept a few odd tit-bits that they might be prepared to give us. Tough negotiations are expected from both sides. That is a reasonable view,
On the other hand, the EU view (or at least Juncker's view) is that he wants the negotiations to fail. That is real spoiled child.

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You've said the same thing about Juncker three times now. Again, read the context and don't be selective.

Herr Tubthumper said:

You've said the same thing about .......... three times now.

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......just following your example!

GT49er said:

Not at all. Juncker is obviously in throwing toys out of the pram mode. Of course, relations with EU countries will be different when we are outside the EU - those relations are, quite rightly, the subject of future negotiations. Reasonable people will want to get the best deals for both sides. Some people, sadly, want the negotiations to fail.
Typical behaviour is Juncker's refusal to allow early discussions on the position of British ex-pats abroad and EU nationals in the UK, to bring about an early resolution and an ending to worry and uncertainty for these people.

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They only care about the monetary side and couldn't care less about people or the migration issues throughout Europe....Free movement was instigated so that the poor EU nations people can bugger off to find jobs jobs in the wealthier EU countries and the obsession with this money maker and fake economy will come crashing down as saturating the country with cheap labour will destroy the quality of life here.
The infrastructure isn't improving and austerity cuts get worse and worse.....This in what is a very prosperous time tells you that migration isn't always a good thing in large numbers....It only benefits big business and landlords etc !!!!
A recession will come soon as they always do every 15 years or so but that's normal....sadly the downside is we'll have 2-3 times more unemployed than usual due to the ever increasing population

GT49er said:

The difference is that the UK position is to negotiate a deal, while warning the EU that we won't just gratefully accept a few odd tit-bits that they might be prepared to give us. Tough negotiations are expected from both sides. That is a reasonable view,
On the other hand, the EU view (or at least Juncker's view) is that he wants the negotiations to fail. That is real spoiled child.

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They're anti British and they couldn't give a flying fack what damage it will do to here and their economies and mostly theirs it seems....So sad that all these EU countries have dictators running this organisation for them and they just sit back creaming the money for doing very little.The EU countries doesn't need this organisation and the sooner they realise this the better !!

GT49er said:

......just following your example!

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I can only reply to your same argument with the same response.

sir albion said:

They're anti British and they couldn't give a flying fack what damage it will do to here and their economies and mostly theirs it seems....So sad that all these EU countries have dictators running this organisation for them and they just sit back creaming the money for doing very little.The EU countries doesn't need this organisation and the sooner they realise this thae better !!

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May has said the Uk can happily walk away with no deal, partly due to all the opportunities the rest of the world holds. So exactly what damage can be done?

Herr Tubthumper said:

As I said, you're overlooking the context of his comments and reading what you want to read.

And you've done it again with your last point. The EU voted through an agreement in 4 minutes flat that one of the three primary immediate goals is to secure the rights of EU citizens in the uk. He has not refused early discussions at all; in fact the exact opposite. Though he did say it's ridiculous to believe a deal can be done by the end of next month which it is .....especially given May has effectively postponed negotiations for a month due to the election.

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From the Telegraph article:
"The pair also clashed over EU migrants as Mrs May pushed for an early deal during negotiations. The European Union's representatives said they were "astonished" by Mrs May's push for it to be sorted "by the end of June"."

If the EU can decide in 4 minutes flat that that is what they want, it's a shame their leaders can't go along with the will of the majority and respond positively to the idea of getting it sorted early. There is no reason why specific talks cannot be started straight after the election, even if a final deal by the end of the month, whilst an admirable aim, might not be achievable. It certainly won't be, if Juncker gets his way!

May believes her own hubris, Brexit is going to be a shit shown unless a more conciliatory tone is taken.

1) May had said she wanted to talk not just Brexit but also world problems; but in practice it fell to Juncker to propose one to discuss.
2) May has made clear to the Commission that she fully expects to be reelected as PM.
3) It is thought [in the Commission] that May wants to frustrate the daily business of the EU27, to improve her own negotiating position.
4) May seemed pissed off at Davis for regaling her dinner guests of his ECJ case against her data retention measures - three times.
5) EU side were astonished at May's suggestion that EU/UK expats issue could be sorted at EU Council meeting at the end of June.
6) Juncker objected to this timetable as way too optimistic given complexities, eg on rights to health care.
7) Juncker pulled two piles of paper from his bag: Croatia's EU entry deal, Canada's free trade deal. His point: Brexit will be v v complex.
8) May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process.
9) Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.
10) EU side felt May was seeing whole thing through rose-tinted-glasses. "Let us make Brexit a success" she told them.
11) Juncker countered that Britain will now be a third state, not even (like Turkey) in the customs union: "Brexit cannot be a success".
12) May seemed surprised by this and seemed to the EU side not to have been fully briefed.
13) She cited her own JHA opt-out negotiations as home sec as a model: a mutually useful agreement meaning lots on paper, little in reality.
14) May's reference to the JHA (justice and home affairs) opt-outs set off alarm signals for the EU side. This was what they had feared.
15) ie as home sec May opted out of EU measures (playing to UK audience) then opted back in, and wrongly thinks she can do same with Brexit
16) "The more I hear, the more sceptical I become" said Juncker (this was only half way through the dinner)
17) May then insisted to Juncker et al that UK owes EU no money because there is nothing to that effect in the treaties.
18) Her guests then informed her that the EU is not a golf club
19) Davis then objected that EU could not force a post-Brexit, post-ECJ UK to pay the bill. OK, said Juncker, then no trade deal.
20) ...leaving EU27 with UK's unpaid bills will involve national parliaments in process (a point that Berlin had made *repeatedly* before).
21) "I leave Downing St ten times as sceptical as I was before" Juncker told May as he left
22) Next morning at c7am Juncker called Merkel on her mobile, said May living in another galaxy & totally deluding herself
23) Merkel quickly reworked her speech to Bundestag to include her now-famous "some in Britain still have illusions" comment
24) FAZ concludes: May in election mode & playing to crowd, but what use is a big majority won by nurturing delusions of Brexit hardliners?
25) Juncker's team now think it more likely than not that Brexit talks will collapse & hope Brits wake up to harsh realities in time.
26) What to make of it all? Obviously this leak is a highly tactical move by Commission. But contents deeply worrying for UK nonetheless.
27) The report points to major communications/briefing problems. Important messages from Berlin & Brussels seem not to be getting through.
28) Presumably as a result, May seems to be labouring under some really rather fundamental misconceptions about Brexit & the EU27.
29) Also clear that (as some of us have been warning for a while...) No 10 should expect every detail of the Brexit talks to leak.