US election (merged threads)

alfredmizen · Nov 9, 2016

Normski1989 said:
If the US and Russia decided to start a war, NATO wouldn't hold up. Especially as the US is the largest country within NATO and we've burnt our bridges with a lot of our EU allies.

You posted that we would soon be "independent" , implying that the EU was part of our defence strategy, you're now saying that NATO wouldn't hold up, implying that somehow the EU would, clueless is the word I'd use to describe a post like that.

Kalimantan Gull · Nov 9, 2016

Mo Gosfield said:
What a lot of people have chosen to ignore, both here re Brexit and over the pond, now, is that the world is undergoing a change. For a very long time the ruling elite have got more powerful and less interested in the welfare of the people they represent. They have relied on the passivity of the electorate, who for years have been seduced into thinking micro rather than macro. The ' I'm alright, sod the rest of you attitude ' and as society has been encouraged to become more selfish, more self-orientated, so divisions have grown into chasms. Whole communities feel cut off from the centres of power. They feel a loss of identity and a loss of self-esteem and self-worth. Anger and frustration grow and eventually it boils over into a massive protest vote.
Those that are happy with their lot see no need to change anything. Keep voting in the same elite, Establishment figures and the dinner parties, the holidays, the public education, the private healthcare and the golf and tennis club memberships can just keep rolling on. Clinton was seen as the Establishment figure. Happy to furnish her own nest to the tune of £150m, whilst displaying all the arrogant signs of an untouchable elite. Trump's outspoken honesty, however controversial and devisive it appeared, appealed to more people than the sleazy status quo of Clinton.

Its interesting that in both of these cases, and I'm sure many others, not a socialist movement that has taken over, its a right-wing conservative-led movement that the working class have joined. I can't help but think that they will be disappointed and socialism and the left needs a long hard look at itself to have lost all these voters

Gwylan · Nov 9, 2016

beorhthelm said:
neither Brexit or US elections are votes for more socialist ideals

Really? How come the Communist Party, both British Socialist parties, the SWP and the Labour left wing are all for Brexit.

looney · Nov 9, 2016

beorhthelm said:
neither Brexit or US elections are votes for more socialist ideals, so where do you make the leap to wealth and power being more distributed as a result?

True but the targets they are going after are the same as the old left, investment bankers, corrupt capitalist media, corrupt political establishment.

Btw, Did I say trump would win by a landslide? cheers,your welcome.

Hastings gull · Nov 9, 2016

Normski1989 said:
If the US and Russia decided to start a war, NATO wouldn't hold up. Especially as the US is the largest country within NATO and we've burnt our bridges with a lot of our EU allies.

I think you will find that NATO and the EU are two different things. Much international military co-operation goes on within NATO and this will not stop.

BBassic · Nov 9, 2016

Hastings gull said:
Your post just shows exactly what I was talking about.
Whilst you may be right about the DM and the complaints, that is not really relevant, is it? I was referring to the readers not the paper. “The other words” is of course your interpretation. In any case, what proof have you got that the “lies” they tell, are believed by the readership? Would I be right in thinking that you look down on those plebs and assume they believe everything they read? I assume that is the point you are making, by bringing in the issue of complaints and alleged lies.
Whilst you are quite right about subverting the law, and may be right that Brexit will not be stopped, you know as well as I do that this is not about process, rather obstruction. I submit to you that if you think this is really only a principle about process, you are being very naïve.
Millions of honest folk went to the polls on June 23rd, on both sides, assuming that whoever won, would have their wishes acceded to. Brexit won and now they see, rightly or wrongly, that an urban elite is trying to block it, because they know best. We both know that this is how the current developments will be viewed in millions of households. You might not like it, but that is the reality, is it not?
I agree that Farage was not at his best by stirring up problems with large demos, but in his defence, he is far more aware than the Westminster Bubble as to how folk feel, and the voting patterns that we saw last night, demonstrated that he is quite right. As I wrote - you cannot expect people to be ignored and loyal

It might be your reality but it sure as shit isn't mine.

The referendum was about leaving the EU. It was not about leaving the EU with no sort of debate on how that should be achieved. That's what this new vote is about. You can bleat on about it being a delaying tactic but I personally don't believe that.

pb21 · Nov 9, 2016

Peteinblack said:
Trump and Farage are both part of the corporate elite - Farage a private-school, Thatcher-worshipping, City trader, and Trump a billionaire businessmen and property tycoon. They will do nothing to tackle low pay for working class people or provide affordable housing for low-earners and young people. The top 1% will continue lining their pockets, while the working class are fed more scapegoats to divert their attention from the fact that it is neo-liberalism (rampant free-market Capitalism) and globalisation which is destroying jobs and driving down wages.

Neither Farage nor Trump will do anything to tackle the power or wealth of the corporate elites on behalf of the working class or blue collar workers. The whole 'we are out there on the side of the people against the elites ' is a giant con - it would be funny if it was not so tragic.

I agree, it's a giant con, and it's feeding an angry mob mentality.

Trouble is that the con is a very attractive position to take, it can align itself with people's natural instinct, despite being false and dangerous.

Normski1989 · Nov 9, 2016

alfredmizen said:
You posted that we would soon be "independent" , implying that the EU was part of our defence strategy, you're now saying that NATO wouldn't hold up, implying that somehow the EU would, clueless is the word I'd use to describe a post like that.

Hastings gull said:
I think you will find that NATO and the EU are two different things. Much international military co-operation goes on within NATO and this will not stop.

In my opinion, and it's just my opinion, something major will happen while Trump is president and Putin rules in Russia. Not sure what exactly, but it will result in quite a large war that Europe will have no choice to be involved in. NATO won't choose to support the US as Trump has very different ideals to them. The rest of NATO consists mainly of European countries that'll look out for themselves and their closest allies. Although the EU and NATO are entirely different things, leaving the EU will have an impact on our relationship with other EU countries, especially as a big part of us leaving the EU was so we could stop citizens of EU countries coming to the UK.

TheJasperCo · Nov 9, 2016

Well, what did I miss?

fat old seagull · Nov 9, 2016

DataPoint said:
I had no preference - I did not bash anyone - but I was shrewed enough be in a position of living with the conscequences of either winner.

If you say so.... :laugh:

Ernest · Nov 9, 2016

Titanic said:
Another poll overstating left wing support?

#prayforJezza

Sent from my SM-G850F using Tapatalk

You've been made to look a STUPID idiot again but keep doing it. If I was YOU I'd QUIT whilst I was BEHIND

Green Cross Code Man · Nov 9, 2016

peterward said:
The Russian peasants wanted their country back in 1917 and backed Lenin, the only gig in town having no idea who or what he was, other than a challenger to the established order. The Germans wanted their country and their national pride back in 1936, we know the rest.

The americans may want "their country back", whatever that means? but have they got it back or have they just been sucked in by populist, nationalist rhetoric with no idea what it is they voted for

Lenin had campaigned for years and years as a revolutionary socialist. How that equates to Trump, I don't know.

Psychobilly freakout · Nov 9, 2016

Bernie would have beaten Trump had he not called himself a socialist that word scares Americans because of the fear loving media establishment connect it wrongly with Russia and China alone. Even if he had called himself a progressive democratic socialist he would have appealed to most Americans once they would have heard his policies.

Or Not

Titanic · Nov 9, 2016

Ernest said:
You've been made to look a STUPID idiot again but keep doing it. If I was YOU I'd QUIT whilst I was BEHIND

Bit early to have been on the sauce Ernest.

Superphil · Nov 9, 2016

https://youtu.be/Ee_uujKuJMI

Peteinblack · Nov 9, 2016

heathgate said:
Like Brexit, this is a vote against Liberalism. Democracy at its most granular level is 'the will of the majority', so in the case of the US, 78% of the population is white... and talk of Black's and Latinos mobilizing socially and politically, did nothing other than encourage the circling of the wagons.

You cannot have a system that is put in place by a majority vote, then proceed to put the interests of the minority sector at the top of your priorities... as you see, the Americans have rejected that.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

No, in America and Britain, democracy (and therefore the public) are manipulated, so that the interests of a minority - the richest 1% and the interest of big business - continue to be prioritised.

I bet you that in, say 4 years time, after Brexit, and with Theresa May as Prime Minister and Trump as President of the USA, the gap between the rich and the low-paid will be wider than ever, and the domination of the British and American economies by a handful of huge corporations will be stronger than ever.

Absolutely nothing will change or improve for the working class - the 'left behind' - who voted for Brexit in the UK or Trump in the USA. These Right-wing 'populists' are exploiting the (understandable and often justified) grievances and resentments of the working class or blue-collar workers for their own political ends.

I am angry that millions of ordinary people work hard for crap wages (while top bosses and bankers pay themselves £millions in salaries and bonuses each year), endure zero-hours contracts and chronic job insecurity, pay over half of their wage in rent to some scummy landlord, and generally struggle to make ends meet. But not for a nanosecond do I think that Farage/Brexit, Theresa May or Donald Trump will do anything to tackle these problems.

Odd, too, that when I point out the problems of the working class/blue collar workers - the 'left behind' - I'm called a Commie and told to F*** off and live in North Korea !

alfredmizen · Nov 9, 2016

Titanic · Nov 9, 2016

The Clamp · Nov 9, 2016

Normski1989 said:
In my opinion, and it's just my opinion, something major will happen while Trump is president and Putin rules in Russia. Not sure what exactly, but it will result in quite a large war that Europe will have no choice to be involved in. NATO won't choose to support the US as Trump has very different ideals to them. The rest of NATO consists mainly of European countries that'll look out for themselves and their closest allies. Although the EU and NATO are entirely different things, leaving the EU will have an impact on our relationship with other EU countries, especially as a big part of us leaving the EU was so we could stop citizens of EU countries coming to the UK.

We live in a very unstable world, made more so by the rise of right wing politics, the failure of moderate governments to look after their own citizens, the stronghold the billionaire elite have on our economy, no housing etc etc, I could go on aplenty,
However, if conflict arises out of this shitty mess ,we'll be okay. We bashed the Hun twice and we kept the Ruskies and the Yellow Peril at bay. I think all this talk of there's going to be a war and we'll be defenceless is ill informed scaremongering.

Eeyore · Nov 9, 2016

Psychobilly freakout said:
The wife has just gone to bed and told me if Trump wins don't wake her up......

Is that am invitation to kill her her ?

Clinton will win with ease,

Just seen J.Jackson on ITV he made of lot sense about the divide between America race, and sex. Although is it just party politics....

nothing will change in America other than if Clinton wins, another war front in another country.

Peaceful morning ?

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