[Football] Maradona

Gazwag · Jun 27, 2018

I don't know why people get het up about who is the greatest player ever. You cannot compare players if different decades of football. Rules, fitness levels, equipment all change. People cannot decide who is best between Messi and Ronaldo and they play under the same conditions. Same as the "older" bhafc supporters always saying the 1979 team was better than the 2017 team, its impossible to compare the two teams.

Thunder Bolt · Jun 27, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
Albania didn't qualify.

neilbard said:
Both didn't qualify.

I said that.

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 27, 2018

Gazwag said:
People cannot decide who is best between Messi and Ronaldo

It’s Messi

Mellotron · Jun 27, 2018

hopkins said:
The Spanish league below the top 3 or 4 is awful.

Yet still miles better than football 30/40 years ago. Far more athletic, more advanced tactically, better technique, etc etc.

I know we're going further back, but have you ever sat and watched the 1966 WC Final? It's ****ing hilarious. Genuinely looks about League Two to National League standard.

Mellotron · Jun 27, 2018

Gazwag said:
I don't know why people get het up about who is the greatest player ever. You cannot compare players if different decades of football. Rules, fitness levels, equipment all change. People cannot decide who is best between Messi and Ronaldo and they play under the same conditions. Same as the "older" bhafc supporters always saying the 1979 team was better than the 2017 team, its impossible to compare the two teams.

Agreed. Standard is absolutely lightyears ahead now.

blue-shifted · Jun 27, 2018

Full disclosure – I’m age 42

My sense is that there’s probably very little between, Pele, Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo

Impossible to properly compare over the years but these factors make me think that you should be given more weight the greats of yesteryear

• Messi and Ronaldo have predominantly achieved at club level. This is in an era when the difference in resources of the clubs playing is ridiculous. For example a typical La Liga fixture such as Barcelona v Getafe, Barcelona would have at least 100 times the money of their opponents, Looking a good player becomes easier and why international football is a better yardstick of greatness.. They both have the chance to negate this argument by having stellar world cups in this tournament as Pele and Maradona have done.

• The biggest single difference I think in the last 30 – 50 years is the ball. They are now loads lighter, easier to strike and act more consistently than the balls used previously, meaning that Ronaldo can score free kicks like against Spain.

• The second biggest difference is the pitches. Dribbling would have been do-able on some pitches, or some parts of pitches, but not all of them. There were also huge discrepancies with different playing conditions in different parts of the world

• The protection for players point has been covered. Remember Pele getting booted out of the 62 tournament? Had he got the protection that today’s players got, he would have had the chance to put this debate beyond doubt. The point being made about better defences is a fair one. Certainly defences are generally much better organised and physically much larger. If I was a striker I’d take my chances against the larger ones of today, rather that the brutal ones of the past

My other comment is that out of all the players I’ve ever seen, Ronaldinho is the only one to have done things I would have considered impossible, so could be a shout for the most skilful, (though clearly don’t have the CV of the others).

Iggle Piggle · Jun 27, 2018

It proves nothing - as the article itself admits - but it is nonetheless a very good statistical based article published before the last World Cup about who is the GOAT.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-is-better-than-maradona-but-maybe-not-pele/

Mellotron · Jun 27, 2018

blue-shifted said:
The point being made about better defences is a fair one. Certainly defences are generally much better organised and physically much larger. If I was a striker I’d take my chances against the larger ones of today, rather that the brutal ones of the past

My other comment is that out of all the players I’ve ever seen, Ronaldinho is the only one to have done things I would have considered impossible, so could be a shout for the most skilful, (though clearly don’t have the CV of the others).

One thing I think you're also ignoring is that the speed of the game is miles ahead of back in the day. All 11 players now are finely honed machines with all the best nutrition and fitness regimes available in the world. Pele would look sluggish and slow compared, if he was dropped into the modern game he would really struggle with the pace of it IMO.

To give an example, let's take a bang average modern player. Glen Johnson. If you go on YouTube, you can find him scoring goals as good as the top players in the world in the 60s and 70s. That's Glen Johnson. The sport has moved on immeasurably, so it's not fair on past players to compare.

As mentioned before, the 66 WC Final technique-wise would be about League Two standard now. I might even be being slightly generous there...

seagulls4ever · Jun 27, 2018

Mellotron said:
Agreed. Standard is absolutely lightyears ahead now.

This is the impression I get from watching games from before my time. Some of the defending is hilarious. Football seems to have moved on and become far more professional. From what I gather, a lot more time is now put into preparation, tactics, fitness, diet as well as a general lift in overall quality resulting from better academies etc. Players in the past had more time on the ball, more space, poorer defenders to run past, etc (based on what I have seen), and these sorts of things make it a lot easier to play better. It's difficult to say what the quality was, but put any current world class players at their peak in the Championship, for example, and they'd rip it apart. Put Messi or Ronaldo in teams from Maradona's or Pele's era and they'd rip it apart, but I don't think you could put those players in the current era and say the same without question because we haven't seen them at the current level. Therefore, I think Ronaldo and Messi are the best ever.

BBassic · Jun 27, 2018

Gazwag said:
I don't know why people get het up about who is the greatest player ever. You cannot compare players if different decades of football. Rules, fitness levels, equipment all change. People cannot decide who is best between Messi and Ronaldo and they play under the same conditions. Same as the "older" bhafc supporters always saying the 1979 team was better than the 2017 team, its impossible to compare the two teams.

Me neither as its clearly and unequivocally Iñigo Calderón.

hans kraay fan club · Jun 27, 2018

Mellotron said:
One thing I think you're also ignoring is that the speed of the game is miles ahead of back in the day. All 11 players now are finely honed machines with all the best nutrition and fitness regimes available in the world. Pele would look sluggish and slow compared, if he was dropped into the modern game he would really struggle with the pace of it IMO.

You're right, but its irrelevant. If you dropped Pele into 'the modern game' he'd be training with the modern methods / facilities / nutritionists /etc, and thus he'd be at those same levels.

neilbard · Jun 27, 2018

blue-shifted said:
Full disclosure – I’m age 42

My sense is that there’s probably very little between, Pele, Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo

Impossible to properly compare over the years but these factors make me think that you should be given more weight the greats of yesteryear

• Messi and Ronaldo have predominantly achieved at club level. This is in an era when the difference in resources of the clubs playing is ridiculous. For example a typical La Liga fixture such as Barcelona v Getafe, Barcelona would have at least 100 times the money of their opponents, Looking a good player becomes easier and why international football is a better yardstick of greatness.. They both have the chance to negate this argument by having stellar world cups in this tournament as Pele and Maradona have done.

• The biggest single difference I think in the last 30 – 50 years is the ball. They are now loads lighter, easier to strike and act more consistently than the balls used previously, meaning that Ronaldo can score free kicks like against Spain.

• The second biggest difference is the pitches. Dribbling would have been do-able on some pitches, or some parts of pitches, but not all of them. There were also huge discrepancies with different playing conditions in different parts of the world

• The protection for players point has been covered. Remember Pele getting booted out of the 62 tournament? Had he got the protection that today’s players got, he would have had the chance to put this debate beyond doubt. The point being made about better defences is a fair one. Certainly defences are generally much better organised and physically much larger. If I was a striker I’d take my chances against the larger ones of today, rather that the brutal ones of the past

My other comment is that out of all the players I’ve ever seen, Ronaldinho is the only one to have done things I would have considered impossible, so could be a shout for the most skilful, (though clearly don’t have the CV of the others).

Touché

allystrat · Jun 27, 2018

Triggaaar said:
But it's clearly true that the game has moved on. Defenders are miles fitter and have had better training, and they've watched many a video of the likes of Messi and Ronaldo, and has training sessions specifically on how to counteract them as a team.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that the England team hadn't seen footage of Maradona, but many teams wouldn't have prepared for him the way teams are now preparing to play against Argentina with Messi.

To balance this out it should however be remembered that Ronaldo & Messi don’t have to deal with tackles from behind and are over protected by referees. Think back to Maradona’s brutal treatment from the likes of Claudio Gentile and Andoni Goitkoexea (known as the ‘Butcher of Bilbao’).

seagulls4ever · Jun 27, 2018

hans kraay fan club said:
You're right, but its irrelevant. If you dropped Pele into 'the modern game' he'd be training with the modern methods / facilities / nutritionists /etc, and thus he'd be at those same levels.

He might be, or he might not. We haven't seen him against the current standard. Even if you upgrade what was available to him to the current level, we don't know how he'd fare against the current level.

neilbard · Jun 27, 2018

hans kraay fan club said:
You're right, but its irrelevant. If you dropped Pele into 'the modern game' he'd be training with the modern methods / facilities / nutritionists /etc, and thus he'd be at those same levels.

Likewise if you dropped Ronaldo back to the sixties, he would be on 3 pints of Watneys Red and a Senior Service before kick off. :drink:

blue-shifted · Jun 27, 2018

I also think that your attitude on this is likely to be influenced by whether you have Sky Sports.

I’ve never had it, so my judgement is based on the World Cup performances I’ve seen. This puts Messi and Ronaldo in the Zico, Cruyff, Platini bracket rather than the Maradona, Pele bracket. I’m rooting for them both to ascend during this tournament.

Lots of Pele’s standing is based on media hype, though media hype and reached new and crazy levels since those days. ( Sky clearly need to keep sports channel subscriptions) You’d be a remarkable individual if this didn’t impact your perception at all.

Questions · Jun 27, 2018

You can only be the best in your era.
There’s no doubting Maradona is the best snorter out there.

Mellotron · Jun 27, 2018

hans kraay fan club said:
You're right, but its irrelevant. If you dropped Pele into 'the modern game' he'd be training with the modern methods / facilities / nutritionists /etc, and thus he'd be at those same levels.

But that's not what people are comparing, because you're talking about a hypothetical person who does not exist - impossible to judge. Nowadays Pele would be up against defenders who weren't League 2 standard, so who knows how he'd be if he had no time on the ball?

All we can actually compare is how good those players are and were when they played and are playing. And it's no contest.

Thunder Bolt · Jun 27, 2018

blue-shifted said:
I also think that your attitude on this is likely to be influenced by whether you have Sky Sports.

I’ve never had it, so my judgement is based on the World Cup performances I’ve seen. This puts Messi and Ronaldo in the Zico, Cruyff, Platini bracket rather than the Maradona, Pele bracket. I’m rooting for them both to ascend during this tournament.

Lots of Pele’s standing is based on media hype, though media hype and reached new and crazy levels since those days. ( Sky clearly need to keep sports channel subscriptions) You’d be a remarkable individual if this didn’t impact your perception at all.

I've never seen Pele on Sky Sports. I base my opinion on his World cup appearances. Gordon Banks was rightly judged on his brillaint save, so Pele is judged on his brilliant world cup appearances.

allystrat · Jun 27, 2018

neilbard said:
Touché

View attachment 98083

And not forgetting footwear too. Combine this with modern day footballs and you have a significant difference.

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