Jeremy Corbyn.

Buzzer · Sep 18, 2015

Castello said:
I think this is the key to what is happening, and so many are wedded to old ideas of left versus right, they cant see the wood for the trees.

I disagree. All that's changed are the labels. Your own rhetoric in some of your longer posts on this thread show clearly that you are left-wing and those whose views you challenge are on the right. You can call it whatever you like but it's essentially the same thing. I don't see a mad rush for consensus politics that makes these labels redundant. If there's one thing that does seem permanent is that the rise and fall of left and right wing populism is cyclical. There's a rise in the left in the UK at the moment but British politics is somewhat strange and unique in that as a nation we generally abhor political extremism from all sides and we tend to occupy a broad middle ground. That's why what happened with Syriza and Podemos will not happen here.

In my opinion, of course.

Pantani · Sep 18, 2015

Hastings gull said:
The sheer volume, you say. I don't know the numbers but do recall a post saying that since his coronation, there had been 30,000 who had joined. This may be impressive in such a short period of time, but is still a very small number for a country of this size. All I am saying is that the many posts from people of left wing persuasion demonstrate (from their perspective) understandable euphoria, and they let their feelings run riot. What has been, in the grand scheme of the numbers game, a large trickle, has been interpreted as a torrent.

Your 'large trickle' would constitute somewhere between 15% and 25% increase in Conservative party members, if they had joined them instead...

In the interest of fairness these are number of members for each party according to this report.

The Conservative Party has around 149,800 members, as of December 2013.
- The Labour Party has around 270,000 members, as of August 2015.
- The Scottish National Party has around 110,000 members, as of June 2015.
- The Liberal Democrat Party has 61,000 members, as of May 2015.
- UKIP has around 42,000 members, as of January 2015.
- The Green Party (England and Wales) has 61,000 members, as of June 2015.

As you can see, 30,000 is a pretty significant number when talking about political party membership in this country. A large trickle it certainly isn't.

Hastings gull · Sep 18, 2015

Castello said:
I agree, although I am of the left, I have consistently said in this thread, I dont believe what is happening is about left or right. I believe politics is realligning across the world and old ideas of left and right will no longer be useful. I know many people on the left who I have as little time for as the conservatives and would dread being elected. I know many who dont share all the same views as I do, but am very able to work well and constructively with to achieve a shared objective.

I think this is the key to what is happening, and so many are wedded to old ideas of left versus right, they cant see the wood for the trees.

Does this now mean that "classwar" will now disappear and that you won't be pressing the ignore button when "right-wingers" have their say, as you proudly announced last week?

Hastings gull · Sep 18, 2015

Pantani said:
Your 'large trickle' would constitute somewhere between 15% and 25% increase in Conservative party members, if they had joined them instead...

In the interest of fairness these are number of members for each party according to this report.

The Conservative Party has around 149,800 members, as of December 2013.
- The Labour Party has around 270,000 members, as of August 2015.
- The Scottish National Party has around 110,000 members, as of June 2015.
- The Liberal Democrat Party has 61,000 members, as of May 2015.
- UKIP has around 42,000 members, as of January 2015.
- The Green Party (England and Wales) has 61,000 members, as of June 2015.

As you can see, 30,000 is a pretty significant number when talking about political party membership in this country. A large trickle it certainly isn't.

That is undoubtedly true, when talking about political party membership, but I was not talking about that, as you know. My point was that one should not get too over-excited, impressive as a figure of 30,000 is, and claim that the country is rejoicing, because when one looks at the population as a whole, it is not that much. That is all I said -no more, no less.

Buzzer · Sep 18, 2015

Pantani said:
Your 'large trickle' would constitute somewhere between 15% and 25% increase in Conservative party members, if they had joined them instead...

In the interest of fairness these are number of members for each party according to this report.

The Conservative Party has around 149,800 members, as of December 2013.
- The Labour Party has around 270,000 members, as of August 2015.
- The Scottish National Party has around 110,000 members, as of June 2015.
- The Liberal Democrat Party has 61,000 members, as of May 2015.
- UKIP has around 42,000 members, as of January 2015.
- The Green Party (England and Wales) has 61,000 members, as of June 2015.

As you can see, 30,000 is a pretty significant number when talking about political party membership in this country. A large trickle it certainly isn't.

From 2013 to 2014 the Tories saw a rise in their membership of 16,000, an increase of 12% and that was for an incumbent party with the same leader in a non-election year.

http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2014/09/conference-survey-and-membership-figures.html

I'm not saying that 30k isn't impressive but a spike in membership was bound to happen.

glasfryn · Sep 18, 2015

Hastings gull said:
Does this now mean that "classwar" will now disappear and that you won't be pressing the ignore button when "right-wingers" have their say, as you proudly announced last week?

I love reading what the right wingers have to say ...................ignore most of it though but some of it is interesting, its not neccessarily a class war some of the most prominent left wingers were and are aristocrats

Simster · Sep 18, 2015

Buzzer said:
"Tory, Tory, Tory. You’re a Tory.’ The level of hatred directed by the Corbyn left at Labour people who have fought Tories all their lives is as menacing as it is ridiculous."

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9637452/why-ive-finally-given-up-on-the-left/

*It's an interesting viewpoint, not aimed at you particularly, Sim, but definitely at those who never supported Labour in the last election but now want to join the Party and drive out long-established party activists because they're too right-wing.

Yes indeed. It's a bit like [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] and his feeble hounding of [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION] simply because HT doesn't agree with Brexit despite being left of centre.

London Irish · Sep 18, 2015

I think Dan Davies had a nice line about Nick Cohen - it's like being a Man United fan who's just heard that Veron is leaving

Hastings gull · Sep 18, 2015

glasfryn said:
I love reading what the right wingers have to say ...................ignore most of it though but some of it is interesting, its not neccessarily a class war some of the most prominent left wingers were and are aristocrats

I don't doubt that there is a sprinkling of left wing aristocrats who want socialism for everybody else, by the way. I think you are somewhat muddled - it is a person of left-wing persuasion who puts as his title "classwar" - I would agree with you that there should be no such thing, which is the irony!

glasfryn · Sep 18, 2015

Hastings gull said:
I don't doubt that there is a sprinkling of left wing aristocrats who want socialism for everybody else, by the way. I think you are somewhat muddled - it is a person of left-wing persuasion who puts as his title "classwar" - I would agree with you that there should be no such thing, which is the irony!

theres definitely no class war
you and I are as good as anyone else

London Irish · Sep 18, 2015

glasfryn said:
theres definitely no class war
you and I are as good as anyone else

Probably the two most prominent socialist politicians in Europe right now are Alexis Tsipras and Jeremy Corbyn - both have already proved they are, by nature, consensus politicians basing their politics on the common sense of much of their electorate, rather than the caricature the press paints of class warriors

jakarta · Sep 18, 2015

London Irish said:
Probably the two most prominent socialist politicians in Europe right now are Alexis Tsipras and Jeremy Corbyn - both have already proved they are, by nature, consensus politicians basing their politics on the common sense of much of their electorate, rather than the caricature the press paints of class warriors

Do you expect Corbyn to be as much as a success for the British People as Tsipras has been for the Greeks?

London Irish · Sep 18, 2015

jakarta said:
Do you expect Corbyn to be as much as a success for the British People as Tsipras has been for the Greeks?

Tsipras showed good judgement in fighting hard for concessions for the Greek people while not plunging his country into the uncertainty of life outside the EU - he just needs more help from other politicians in Europe - and this is where Corbyn comes in

jakarta · Sep 18, 2015

London Irish said:
Tsipras showed good judgement in fighting hard for concessions for the Greek people while not plunging his country into the uncertainty of life outside the EU - he just needs more help from other politicians in Europe - and this is where Corbyn comes in

That is as Panglossian a take on a disastrous passage of political events as I can think of. :facepalm:

With him in charge the Greeks got shafted even harder by Germany!

Thunder Bolt · Sep 18, 2015

This is a strange appointment to the Shadow cabinet.
[tweet]644896091004084224[/tweet]

DataPoint · Sep 18, 2015

glasfryn said:
theres definitely no class war
you and I are as good as anyone else

Ah! But are you equal to everyone else?

Castello · Sep 18, 2015

glasfryn said:
theres definitely no class war
you and I are as good as anyone else

People as diverse as Warren Buffet and Noam Chomsky disagree. Im sure they'll be relieved that NSC has declared it over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_conflict

London Irish · Sep 18, 2015

jakarta said:
That is as Panglossian a take on a disastrous passage of political events as I can think of.

With him in charge the Greeks got shafted even harder by Germany!

Not really - Tsipras got another huge barrel-load of money, 86 billion euros to be precise, a fair bit of it from the German taxpayer. Some shafting. They won't be able to pay it back of course, but everyone knows this and debt haircuts remain on the table. You can spin it how you want but that's ACTUALLY what happened

Buzzer · Sep 18, 2015

Castello said:
People as diverse as Warren Buffet and Noam Chomsky disagree. Im sure they'll be relieved that NSC has declared it over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_conflict

Whereas there are other experts who have made a lifetime's study of the subject such as Professor Dorling who say that 'class' as we used to define it is meaningless nowadays. As John Prescott said 'We're all middle-class now'.

http://www.dannydorling.org/wp-content/files/dannydorling_publication_id4074.pdf

jakarta · Sep 18, 2015

London Irish said:
Not really - Tsipras got another huge barrel-load of money, 86 billion euros to be precise, a fair bit of it from the German taxpayer. Some shafting. They won't be able to pay it back of course, but everyone knows this and debt haircuts remain on the table. You can spin it how you want but that's ACTUALLY what happened

http://www.greekcrisis.net/2015/09/alexis-through-looking-glass-world-of.html

You are right, what a difference he has made!

Yet everything is the same because Syriza signed up in July for a €86bn bailout from its European creditors. The government accepted a trade-off between financial aid and internationally supervised domestic reform — just as its centre-left, technocratic and centre-right predecessors did between 2010 and 2014. Mr Tsipras even relied on the parliamentary support of his centre-left and centre-right adversaries to legitimise the bailout. Hard-pressed Greeks can be excused for asking why it is necessary to elect a new parliament for the fifth time since October 2009, and what practical difference it will make to their lives if they vote for Syriza or any of its mainstream rivals.

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