[Albion] Norwich's position on 19th January 2014 under Hughton

warmleyseagull said:

What’s Hyppia and Burke got to do with it? OP is making perfectly reasonable point that CH tactics are not working not least against top 6, unless by ‘working’ you mean not getting hammered (except Liverpool) but instead defending for 30,40,50,60,70 minutes or however long it takes for the defence to be breached and then just continue with the same approach so we only get beat 2-0. CH can then give some BS about defending well in parts, bad goals conceded, they have quality players, blah, blah, blah. Apart from Man U we have looked like League 1 on a FA Cup day out against top 6, and not much better in most away games against the rest.

But of course we are 16th so why worry? Well, we have effectively only 9 winnable games left; you never know a 1-0 FA Cup type top shock result against top 6 might sneak in but I wouldn’t bet on it. Defending the Alamo is what CH does; it doesn’t work, so let’s just try and do it better.

And we need minimum 4 wins from those games, ideally 5. If anyone can give a heads up as to where they will come from based on current form, please go ahead. Another poster has said (presumably seriously) that would take 10 points right now meaning we hold heads high as sink back into Championship not in 20th place (probably).

I am certainly seeing now what the Norwich fans meant, It is not the negativity per se, but the stubborn refusal to see that it isn’t working. It isn’t moaning, it is not even frustrating, it is merely observational.

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Icy Gull said:

It may be a bit negative but it’s an interesting comparison. I expect TB will hold his nerve, even if we end up in the same situation four games from season’s end. From memory Sunderland under Gus and Palace last season managed to escape with a similar run in.

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GT49er said:

I seem to remember we were in a pretty grim position four games before the end of the 2014-15 season too. Good job we didn't do a Norwich then, eh?

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Blind Pugh said:

Ermm and the run in was composed of what calibre of teams?

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GT49er said:

I seem to remember we were in a pretty grim position four games before the end of the 2014-15 season too. Good job we didn't do a Norwich then, eh?

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nicko31 said:

Interesting they were on 23 points on 19th Jan 14. Rest of the season they picked up 10 points and only scored 10 goals, relegated 4 points short.

I recall at the time the Norwich faithful were very critical that he was way too negative

We are going to have to go for it more in some games if we are going to have a fighting chance of staying up. Otherwise history will repeat itself

Need to start this Saturday and as Warren A has said, get in Chelsea's faces

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Brighton Mod said:

We were warned by Norwich fans what to expect from CH. Nice and popular guy, not confrontational or outspoken, but we were warned. Another debacle from CH and his PL dreams will end and wil be considered a Neil Warnock character of getting teams to the the PL but not to stay. I truly hope we are wrong, but I can not really see any change in his strategy this Saturday. WBA was about the easiest game we had to play and failed in all areas off and on the pitch, reality check required from some on here. Expect no change, because he can't.

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Gazz15 said:

Yeah we must go for teams throats, no more of this queuing up to get the likes of Salah's autograph by our players, that was heartbreaking to hear at the time.

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Brighton Mod said:

We were warned by Norwich fans what to expect from CH. Nice and popular guy, not confrontational or outspoken, but we were warned. Another debacle from CH and his PL dreams will end and wil be considered a Neil Warnock character of getting teams to the the PL but not to stay. I truly hope we are wrong, but I can not really see any change in his strategy this Saturday. WBA was about the easiest game we had to play and failed in all areas off and on the pitch, reality check required from some on here. Expect no change, because he can't.

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Common as Mook said:

"Heartbreaking"

FFS grow a pair you absolute wet weekend.

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Gazz15 said:

I like to think of our players as men, not bloody stars in their eyes schoolboys hanging around trying to get autographs of someone, who was a nothing player himself just 3 years ago!

It doesn't fill one with confidence, that these players aren't going out on the pitch with an inferiority complex.

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warmleyseagull said:

I am certainly seeing now what the Norwich fans meant, It is not the negativity per se, but the stubborn refusal to see that it isn’t working. It isn’t moaning, it is not even frustrating, it is merely observational.

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Common as Mook said:

Beram Kayal is a proud Arab.
Mo Salah is THE absolute iconic Arabic footballer on the planet at the moment.

He asked for an autograph in the players tunnel after the game. I see absolutely ZERO problem with that at all. Beram Kayal is a professional in how he conducts himself on and off the pitch,

To say it's "heartbreaking" is infinitely more pathetic than Kayal's conduct.

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Gazz15 said:

Was it just Kayal? I heard it was other players too....

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Gazz15 said:

Yeah we must go for teams throats, no more of this queuing up to get the likes of Salah's autograph by our players, that was heartbreaking to hear at the time.

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Gazz15 said:

Was it just Kayal? I heard it was other players too....

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Common as Mook said:

Couldn't give a monkey's toss if others did as well.
Are you now saying it's OK for Kayal to do it? Or is it still heartbreaking?

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Gazz15 said:

Well you seemed to want to justify Kayal's position, at least you gave a reason for his 'love - in'.

Other players, yes it is 'heart breaking' to hear of them bigging up an opponent quite like that.

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Scunner said:

My take is this. Essentially the standard outside of the top 7/8 teams the standard of player and football is not much better than the Championship. Managers like Hughton/Warnock/Bruce/Allardyce et al do very well in the Championship because they are tactically disciplined and get the most out of technically limited players through a structurally sound base that most can understand and replicate. Let's call them 'pragmatists'.

But this approach will generally founder against the top 7/8 teams in the Premier league. It is because the overarching mentality of their teams is tactics/caution/mentality/discipline, and the psychological approach to games against the top 6 is not to lose, or not to lose by many to gain a relative goal difference advantage to their peers from those matches. The gamble being that they will take more points from their peers because of the same disciplines that brought success in the Championship and in previous PL season. The aim is to be the best of the rest, the best pragmatist if you will.

Allardyce's record against the top 6 is terrible, and he is honest about approaching the season in 6 match blocks where he targets a certain number of points in each. He writes-off top 6 games, viewing any points against them as a bonus. Hughton is the same, he is on record last week as saying 'games against the top 6 teams 'don't matter'.

So, players - for me - are then part of a mentality that approaches top 7/8 games with exactly the wrong psychology if they are to get a win.

Eddie Howe at Bournemouth and Wagner at Huddersfield have a different mindset - it is 'sod the goal difference, we are going to take points off the top 7/8 and gain a march on our peers. We are going to play our way. yes we will get stuffed at times but we will also win points'. They are 'optimists'.

Saturday is a prime example of the difference in approach, I am hoping, I really am, that Hughton starts 442. Not because I am a kamikaze nutcase, but because: we need points, we need to send out a team with a positive mindset that feels it can win, we need pace up front with Baldock, Chelsea are in a bad place, and we must start brightly. Hughton's mentality will be 'keep it tight for the first half and let's see if we can grab something out of the game in the second'. This is not the way to play this match. The top 6 get better as games move into the latter stages, not worse. This is where they win, by tiring out the opposition and capitalising on mistakes.

Hughton will start 451 - let's be honest it is never really 4411 because Gross is too slow - and this will tell us all what we already know. He is a good man, a good manager but he is too cautious to get points against the top teams. He generally reacts to the other manager's substitutions rather pro-actively looks to change games, he sticks to his formation when all common sense points in the other direction and he is too respectful.

Leicester showed that a positive mental attitude conquers all, it can be ephemeral, it might be temporary and you might get spanked, But if not that, what else? Die trying, not wondering.

My hypothesis is that optimists will triumph over the oragmatists this season because the points they accrue will amount to a greater differential versus their peers than the goal difference focus of the pragmatists. The pragmatists have traditionally done well in previous seasons because the standard below the top 7/8 teams fits their approach very well. However I think times have changed because the gap to the top 6 is now so big that the premium for points gained against them carries even more significance than it ever did. This is where the key lies and this is where I think Hughton's approach is flawed. A win for us tomorrow would be bigger than any other this season, it would be worth more than three points, it would virtually guarantee survival because of the psychological impact it would have. It is bigger for us than games against those around us because everyone gets points against 'teams around them'. Not everyone gets points against the top six, and three of them would be absolutely massive.

Instinctively, we know this. He knows it, he knows that Gross should come on when we are 1-0 with 20 to go, not bring Baldock on when we are 1-0 down at the same stage, and this is where the tactical straight-jacket restricts us. The top teams want you to do that, they want you to chase with 20 to go, and that's when they win 3/4/5 - 0.

I really hope that all of the above is wrong, but I don't think it will be.

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Scunner said:

My take is this. Essentially the standard outside of the top 7/8 teams the standard of player and football is not much better than the Championship. Managers like Hughton/Warnock/Bruce/Allardyce et al do very well in the Championship because they are tactically disciplined and get the most out of technically limited players through a structurally sound base that most can understand and replicate. Let's call them 'pragmatists'.

But this approach will generally founder against the top 7/8 teams in the Premier league. It is because the overarching mentality of their teams is tactics/caution/mentality/discipline, and the psychological approach to games against the top 6 is not to lose, or not to lose by many to gain a relative goal difference advantage to their peers from those matches. The gamble being that they will take more points from their peers because of the same disciplines that brought success in the Championship and in previous PL season. The aim is to be the best of the rest, the best pragmatist if you will.

Allardyce's record against the top 6 is terrible, and he is honest about approaching the season in 6 match blocks where he targets a certain number of points in each. He writes-off top 6 games, viewing any points against them as a bonus. Hughton is the same, he is on record last week as saying 'games against the top 6 teams 'don't matter'.

So, players - for me - are then part of a mentality that approaches top 7/8 games with exactly the wrong psychology if they are to get a win.

Eddie Howe at Bournemouth and Wagner at Huddersfield have a different mindset - it is 'sod the goal difference, we are going to take points off the top 7/8 and gain a march on our peers. We are going to play our way. yes we will get stuffed at times but we will also win points'. They are 'optimists'.

Saturday is a prime example of the difference in approach, I am hoping, I really am, that Hughton starts 442. Not because I am a kamikaze nutcase, but because: we need points, we need to send out a team with a positive mindset that feels it can win, we need pace up front with Baldock, Chelsea are in a bad place, and we must start brightly. Hughton's mentality will be 'keep it tight for the first half and let's see if we can grab something out of the game in the second'. This is not the way to play this match. The top 6 get better as games move into the latter stages, not worse. This is where they win, by tiring out the opposition and capitalising on mistakes.

Hughton will start 451 - let's be honest it is never really 4411 because Gross is too slow - and this will tell us all what we already know. He is a good man, a good manager but he is too cautious to get points against the top teams. He generally reacts to the other manager's substitutions rather pro-actively looks to change games, he sticks to his formation when all common sense points in the other direction and he is too respectful.

Leicester showed that a positive mental attitude conquers all, it can be ephemeral, it might be temporary and you might get spanked, But if not that, what else? Die trying, not wondering.

My hypothesis is that optimists will triumph over the oragmatists this season because the points they accrue will amount to a greater differential versus their peers than the goal difference focus of the pragmatists. The pragmatists have traditionally done well in previous seasons because the standard below the top 7/8 teams fits their approach very well. However I think times have changed because the gap to the top 6 is now so big that the premium for points gained against them carries even more significance than it ever did. This is where the key lies and this is where I think Hughton's approach is flawed. A win for us tomorrow would be bigger than any other this season, it would be worth more than three points, it would virtually guarantee survival because of the psychological impact it would have. It is bigger for us than games against those around us because everyone gets points against 'teams around them'. Not everyone gets points against the top six, and three of them would be absolutely massive.

Instinctively, we know this. He knows it, he knows that Gross should come on when we are 1-0 with 20 to go, not bring Baldock on when we are 1-0 down at the same stage, and this is where the tactical straight-jacket restricts us. The top teams want you to do that, they want you to chase with 20 to go, and that's when they win 3/4/5 - 0.

I really hope that all of the above is wrong, but I don't think it will be.

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