[News] Slavery in "nice" places in Britain

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 30, 2018

http://https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-46036314

This was on South Today tonight. A vulnerable Polish man being kept in dreadful conditions. Two people arrested for it this morning

This was in Chilworth in Southampton - just down the road from me, a couple of miles away. It is one of the most affluent, if not the most affluent part of the City - big flash houses down long drives. He lived in a concrete shed for four years with no flushing toilet, no heating and his kitchen facilities were a fridge and an outside barbecue.

Presuming the case is as it seems to be reported, I think the people who did this are pure evil. Slavery is something I would assume is to do with organised crime, girls (or boys) being used for sex or other nefarious purposes...… which is awful in its own right. I'm flabbergasted.

Knocky's Nose · Oct 30, 2018

This may sound a bit contrarian, but was the guy living in the shed held there against his will and forced into unwilling labour? If so, that was slavery, 100%...

If not, that was just his choice to accept clearly poor working and living conditions for whatever reason (including being mentally unfit to question it). Wrong - and against all forms of employment law if they paid him and/or offered him accommodation as part of his salary, obviously - but not actual slavery. There is a difference, surely?

I also think plonking this chap in the same pot as people who are trafficked for sexual purposes is again very wide of the mark. There's working for a poor salary and poor accommodation, and there's being raped multiple times a day by strangers for the financial benefit of someone else.

There is of course a problem with 'modern slavery' but I'd probably question this particular case a little more deeply as the account you have quoted is a little sketchy. Morally wrong, on the face of it - but still sketchy..

beorhthelm · Oct 30, 2018

Knocky's Nose said:
This may sound a bit contrarian, but was the guy living in the shed held there against his will and forced into unwilling labour?

yes. no one choses to live like that, bar a few eco-warrior mavericks in a shed in the woods.

Knocky's Nose · Oct 30, 2018

The story just follows 'claims' that a vulnerable Polish man was 'forced' to work in exchange for food, and a bed in a shed which had no flushing toilet..

Nobody chooses to live like that - but if he's vulnerable for whatever reason and it's a choice between sleeping on the streets and starving - or being fed and living in a shed with no flushing toilet in exchange for work - it's a choice? Not slavery...

As ever, I don't agree with what happened to the fella, nor do I support modern slavery - I just ask people to question both sides, then make a decision based on facts.

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 30, 2018

Knocky's Nose said:
This may sound a bit contrarian, but was the guy living in the shed held there against his will and forced into unwilling labour? If so, that was slavery, 100%...

If not, that was just his choice to accept clearly poor working and living conditions for whatever reason (including being mentally unfit to question it). Wrong - and against all forms of employment law if they paid him and/or offered him accommodation as part of his salary, obviously - but not actual slavery. There is a difference, surely?

I also think plonking this chap in the same pot as people who are trafficked for sexual purposes is again very wide of the mark. There's working for a poor salary and poor accommodation, and there's being raped multiple times a day by strangers for the financial benefit of someone else.

There is of course a problem with 'modern slavery' but I'd probably question this particular case a little more deeply as the account you have quoted is a little sketchy. Morally wrong, on the face of it - but still sketchy..

The implication of the story is that he was forced etc etc.

I was not trying to lump this case in with, or compare it to the organised crime sort of slavery stuff.

And I find the case quite literally incredible - difficult to believe - which is why I was very careful to say "Presuming this case is found to be as it is reported...…".

But if those arrested are "guilty as charged"..... not that they have been charged of anything yet as far as I am aware..... I hope they get clobbered.

LlcoolJ · Oct 30, 2018

Knocky's Nose said:
The story just follows 'claims' that a vulnerable Polish man was 'forced' to work in exchange for food, and a bed in a shed which had no flushing toilet..

Nobody chooses to live like that - but if he's vulnerable for whatever reason and it's a choice between sleeping on the streets and starving - or being fed and living in a shed with no flushing toilet in exchange for work - it's a choice? Not slavery...

As ever, I don't agree with what happened to the fella, nor do I support modern slavery - I just ask people to question both sides, then ormake a decision based on facts.

Er. It sounds pretty shit to me. What sort of people would exploit anyone in that way. It might not be sexual slavery but so what?

I have a mate staying at mine at the moment as he's had a ridiculous run of bad luck. Seeing as he could be on the streets, should I be making him sleep in the outhouse and not letting him use the bathroom (or come into the house at all) because he's "vulnerable".

Maybe instead of lending him a few quid til he gets sorted I should get him to wash my car and do chores all day so he doesn't have the chance to get himself a proper job.

There aren't two sides to this mate. The people could have directed him to the right places to get help. Or any other manner of ways of treating him like a human. Say installing a toilet in the shed, some heating maybe?

The Clamp · Oct 30, 2018

DavidinSouthampton said:
http://https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-46036314

This was on South Today tonight. A vulnerable Polish man being kept in dreadful conditions. Two people arrested for it this morning

This was in Chilworth in Southampton - just down the road from me, a couple of miles away. It is one of the most affluent, if not the most affluent part of the City - big flash houses down long drives. He lived in a concrete shed for four years with no flushing toilet, no heating and his kitchen facilities were a fridge and an outside barbecue.

Presuming the case is as it seems to be reported, I think the people who did this are pure evil. Slavery is something I would assume is to do with organised crime, girls (or boys) being used for sex or other nefarious purposes...… which is awful in its own right. I'm flabbergasted.

We’re his “employers” Middle Eastern by any chance?

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 30, 2018

Don't know. It was repeated on the 10 o'clock news, and they gave no names or whatever.

The Clamp · Oct 30, 2018

Knocky's Nose said:
The story just follows 'claims' that a vulnerable Polish man was 'forced' to work in exchange for food, and a bed in a shed which had no flushing toilet..

Nobody chooses to live like that - but if he's vulnerable for whatever reason and it's a choice between sleeping on the streets and starving - or being fed and living in a shed with no flushing toilet in exchange for work - it's a choice? Not slavery...

As ever, I don't agree with what happened to the fella, nor do I support modern slavery - I just ask people to question both sides, then make a decision based on facts.

It s more complicated than that. He may have “chosen” to come and work for them, immediately been stripped of money, passport etc and then threatened with all sorts if he tries to leave.
They sometimes have spare clothes with money in the pockets that they are only allowed to put on if they get raided to give the illusion of them being looosd after and paid.

I have provided safeguarding and protection for victims of modern slavery and sex trafficking and, I mean this without offence, your impression of what slavery is is a common misconception.

Most of us have likely grown up in a secure, stable home, had an education, received care for any ailments we may have, 3 squares a day, etc and have a totally different mind set to someone who has a combination of mental health issues, drug use, violent upbringing, exploitation, war, torture, rape and living under constant threat. It takes training and experience to understand what slavery is and how people can seem to be “choosing” these circumstances when in fact choice doesn’t even enter into the equation.

Knocky's Nose · Oct 30, 2018

LlcoolJ said:
There aren't two sides to this mate. The people could have directed him to the right places to get help. Or any other manner of ways of treating him like a human. Say installing a toilet in the shed, some heating maybe?

Your point is valid and obviously correct. Living conditions in 2018 should be better than the late Victorian era. I cannot question that.

However, the people 'employing' him may have just made that offer and said 'take it or leave it' - and he took it, because there was nothing better and there were other people behind him happily willing to accept. Hobson's choice, if you like - crap though it may be. Employers don't have the legal obligation to better their employees, otherwise should all McDonalds burger flippers be trained to Michelin Star standards in order to get jobs at top restaurants? Should Addison Lee employees be sent on Rolls Royce Chauffeur courses? (That's a bit much as an example, I'll give you that - and it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut in point making..)

If this guy was coerced into the job, forced to work unwillingly and then put in squalid conditions - then yes, that's slavery. If he was offered the job in exchange for food and shit accommodation, and happily took it - then that's not quite slavery, is it?

I will state again, I don't agree with what's happened (at all) - but would just question the knee-jerk 'outrage' that seems to prevail in today's soceity. There's a place for absolute outrage, and there's a place for being pissed off on someone's behalf. I think people with more knowledge than us need to bang the gavel on this....

LlcoolJ · Oct 30, 2018

Knocky's Nose said:
Your point is valid and obviously correct. Living conditions in 2018 should be better than the late Victorian era. I cannot question that.

However, the people 'employing' him may have just made that offer and said 'take it or leave it' - and he took it, because there was nothing better and there were other people behind him happily willing to accept. Hobson's choice, if you like - crap though it may be. Employers don't have the legal obligation to better their employees, otherwise should all McDonalds burger flippers be trained to Michelin Star standards in order to get jobs at top restaurants? Should Addison Lee employees be sent on Rolls Royce Chauffeur courses? (That's a bit much as an example, I'll give you that - and it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut in point making..)

If this guy was coerced into the job, forced to work unwillingly and then put in squalid conditions - then yes, that's slavery. If he was offered the job in exchange for food and shit accommodation, and happily took it - then that's not quite slavery, is it?

I will state again, I don't agree with what's happened (at all) - but would just question the knee-jerk 'outrage' that seems to prevail in today's soceity. There's a place for absolute outrage, and there's a place for being pissed off on someone's behalf. I think people with more knowledge than us need to bang the gavel on this....

But what sort of people are those who would do that to someone? Even if it was his best option at the time.

How could you sleep at night knowing there was a poor wretch at the bottom of your garden, living in those conditions, for four years?

That's my point.

The Clamp · Oct 30, 2018

If he had told police that it was his choice and insisted on going back there, he would have been allowed unless his vulnerability rendered him unable to make a choice over his own welfare. There is nothing to stop people living in those conditions if they have a genuine choice.
It doesn’t sound like he had a choice. Choice being a very subjective and relative thing.

The Clamp · Oct 30, 2018

Knocky's Nose said:
The story just follows 'claims' that a vulnerable Polish man was 'forced' to work in exchange for food, and a bed in a shed which had no flushing toilet..

Nobody chooses to live like that - but if he's vulnerable for whatever reason and it's a choice between sleeping on the streets and starving - or being fed and living in a shed with no flushing toilet in exchange for work - it's a choice? Not slavery...

As ever, I don't agree with what happened to the fella, nor do I support modern slavery - I just ask people to question both sides, then make a decision based on facts.

From what I can see here the two words to focus on are “vulnerable” and “choice”. Vulnerable can cover an huge array of circumstances from mental, physical to status and addiction.
Choice. In real terms, the “choice” between sleeping rough or living in a squalid shed is not a choice in any real sense of the word. It may seem like a choice he’s made but in reality it is not a choice at all. He is vulnerable because he would otherwise be sleeping rough and therefore has been forced to make a “choice”. Being forced into a choice is not a choice in any sense of how we understand “choice”

Knocky's Nose · Oct 30, 2018

The Clamp said:
From what I can see here the two words to focus on are “vulnerable” and “choice”. Vulnerable can cover an huge array of circumstances from mental, physical to status and addiction.
Choice. In real terms, the “choice” between sleeping rough or living in a squalid shed is not a choice in any real sense of the word. It may seem like a choice he’s made but in reality it is not a choice at all. He is vulnerable because he would otherwise be sleeping rough and therefore has been forced to make a “choice”. Being forced into a choice is not a choice in any sense of how we understand “choice”

Cannot disagree with any of that.

The Clamp · Oct 31, 2018

Knocky's Nose said:
Cannot disagree with any of that.

Don’t think I used the word “choice” too much? I feel I did. What choice did I have?

Knocky's Nose · Oct 31, 2018

Choice is free will.

However, it's the circumstances which lead you to arrive at that choice which lead to the question - and your point...

It was your choice to... ahhh.. sod it.. it's past midnight and I'm off to bed. :wink:

clapham_gull · Oct 31, 2018

Incredible what was highlighted about Spanish vegetable fields on the recent Simon Reeve Mediterranean document.

I know Spain isn't the UK in respect of employment, but I was amazed the EU allow that to happen within its borders and seemingly quite legally.

Somewhat throws in the air the believe that the EU is a paragon of virtue regarding workers rights and protection.

Brovion · Oct 31, 2018

Knocky's Nose said:
This may sound a bit contrarian, but was the guy living in the shed held there against his will and forced into unwilling labour? If so, that was slavery, 100%...

If not, that was just his choice to accept clearly poor working and living conditions for whatever reason (including being mentally unfit to question it). Wrong - and against all forms of employment law if they paid him and/or offered him accommodation as part of his salary, obviously - but not actual slavery. There is a difference, surely?

I also think plonking this chap in the same pot as people who are trafficked for sexual purposes is again very wide of the mark. There's working for a poor salary and poor accommodation, and there's being raped multiple times a day by strangers for the financial benefit of someone else.

There is of course a problem with 'modern slavery' but I'd probably question this particular case a little more deeply as the account you have quoted is a little sketchy. Morally wrong, on the face of it - but still sketchy..

Blimey, are you their lawyer? "It wasn't slavery m'lud, he came to my clients willingly and anyway he always said he liked the spartan lifestyle".

I don't think you (they) can wiggle out of it by having too narrow a definition of what constitutes 'Modern Slavery'. Since the days of legally selling people in public markets slavery is not just people who have been trafficked against their will, so yes we can indeed put him with the sex slaves.

Knocky's Nose · Oct 31, 2018

Brovion said:
Blimey, are you their lawyer?

......so yes we can indeed put him with the sex slaves.

I'm not a lawyer, I just question everything these days which provokes 'outrage' - a thing which many people queue up with excited anticipation to enjoy and revel in. We don't know the full facts here, yet we're lumping this guy in with trafficked females who are raped multiple times a day, every day. Yeah. Right on Brother. I'm sure these females would give a limb to live in a shed with no shitter rather than live a life of mental and physical torture.

The guy lives in a cold shed with no toilet and is fed in exchange for working. Well yes, that's not right. It's shit, and the people offering him this are c#nts - don't get me wrong.

That said, what about people who do hard manual labour for minimum wage and can't afford to pay their rent - or eat properly. They will often work in the cold and rain, with no warm toilet - possibly just a freezing cold portaloo in winter. Do we call that modern slavery? Was it their choice to take the job? Are they 'vulnerable'?

I think until we know more facts about a story we shouldn't jump on our high horses. I'm not saying for one moment the employer (term used loosely) is innocent - or guilty, but it's for the courts to decide when they're armed with all the facts - and I don't think we are.

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[News] Slavery in "nice" places in Britain

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