[News] Craig Mackey , cowardly copper

Bold Seagull · Oct 10, 2018

Commander said:
And this is what is wrong with society today. He is at the top of the tree. He should have put himself on the line for his officers, no questions asked. Leadership.

If I was a Met copper I would quit over this. Why should I put myself on the line for the public if my boss wasn’t prepared to do it for me?

The message this sends out is that if I am being attacked by a knife man in the street and there is a policeman nearby, there’s no need for him to help me if he isn’t armed, as he probably can’t do anything anyway.

What a dreadful, self-serving, cowardly society we have become.

Imagine if people had had this kind of attitude in the world wars.

From what I’ve read he couldn’t have stopped Palmer being stabbed. With everyone else fleeing the scene, including other policeman, he and his occupants would have been the next target had they exited the car. Armed response then dealt with the threat before anyone else was injured. What would have been gained by the alternative action, another dead policeman and possibly the occupants of his car. I don’t know, I can see both sides of this, but without being trained in policing or being there I’m not passing judgement on an incident I know too little about.

Hugo Rune · Oct 10, 2018

Commander said:
And this is what is wrong with society today. He is at the top of the tree. He should have put himself on the line for his officers, no questions asked. Leadership.

So his actions were wrong because he is at the top of the tree? Do you forgive the unarmed officers who fled who weren’t in charge?

Should all Police officers confront people with weapons when they have no weapons and no body armour themselves with the most likely outcome, their death or serious injury?

I think what’s wrong with society today is people reading media headlines which are designed as click-bait, forming rash opinions and quickly playing judge & jury without establishing all the facts and taking due consideration.

It seems Mackey’s first instinct was to protect fellow passengers with his second being to ‘put everything in place’ as is what his rank should be doing. He obviously realised, very sadly, that Palmer was beyond saving.

‘He recalled locking the doors of his chauffeur-driven car, where neither of the two other people inside had stab vests, any other equipment or a radio to communicate with officers about what was happening.’

Deportivo Seagull · Oct 10, 2018

portlock seagull said:
Astonished by the level of moronic comment on here, as if two dead coppers is better than one. For the stupid therefore, Copper A had already been mortally stabbed by knife wielding maniac before Copper B could possibly have done something, which in all likelihood would be getting stabbed too, probably fatally; before armed police could shot said maniac. As others have said, it’s not Hollywood, where a quick roundhouse kick sends the baddie - in slow motion - into a nearby bin, upside down and trapped, his legs wiggling in the air before back up arrives.

Rank has nothing to do with it. Except of course if you want to portray this incident as something it wasn’t. Which is exactly what media outlets including the BBC have done. Congrats if you’ve been hooked by such clickbait, but really, have some respect for yourself and don’t be so easily manipulated into such idiotic conclusions as some have made here. To call a Head of our Police a coward is beyond contempt. He also puts his life on the line each and every day for us, including when he was a Bobby on the beat 20 years ago.

Utter crap. Those of us criticising him is because of his total inaction and dereliction of duty. He basically left it to others when he was arguably best qualified to act. At a minimum distracting the attacker until fire arm officers turned up would have been of benefit. He didn’t. During other attacks members of the public did just this by shouting abuse and throwing anything that came to hand.
You might note that those of us that are most critical of his actions are those that spent time in the forces. Leaving your oppo/colleague in the shit is an absolute no no. He fell well short of what was expected of him by his colleagues.

Commander · Oct 10, 2018

Hugo Rune said:
So his actions were wrong because he is at the top of the tree? Do you forgive the unarmed officers who fled who weren’t in charge?

Should all Police officers confront people with weapons when they have no weapons and no body armour themselves with the most likely outcome, their death or serious injury?

I think what’s wrong with society today is people reading media headlines which are designed as click-bait, forming rash opinions and quickly playing judge & jury without establishing all the facts and taking due consideration.

It seems Mackey’s first instinct was to protect fellow passengers with his second being to ‘put everything in place’ as is what his rank should be doing. He obviously realised, very sadly, that Palmer was beyond saving.

‘He recalled locking the doors of his chauffeur-driven car, where neither of the two other people inside had stab vests, any other equipment or a radio to communicate with officers about what was happening.’

Yes, I think being at the top of the tree is the most important thing here. If this was your family being attacked then you would have gone straight in without a second thought. You wouldn't have thought "No point in me being killed as well, I'm better of sorting out the aftermath", would you? And that is how this guy should have thought about his officers. His men.

I agree there is a problem with click-bait headlines and the amount of people that form rash opinions, but I don't think that is the case here. The fact is that he is the leader, and leaders should lead from the front, and that means putting yourself in harm's way if the shit hits the fan. That's the deal when you take the top job.

Notice how almost all the military types on here are in agreement about this guy's actions. They are better placed to pass judgement than we are.

Justice · Oct 10, 2018

Commander said:
Yes, I think being at the top of the tree is the most important thing here. If this was your family being attacked then you would have gone straight in without a second thought. You wouldn't have thought "No point in me being killed as well, I'm better of sorting out the aftermath", would you? And that is how this guy should have thought about his officers. His men.

I agree there is a problem with click-bait headlines and the amount of people that form rash opinions, but I don't think that is the case here. The fact is that he is the leader, and leaders should lead from the front, and that means putting yourself in harm's way if the shit hits the fan. That's the deal when you take the top job.

Notice how almost all the military types on here are in agreement about this guy's actions. They are better placed to pass judgement than we are.

****.ing spot on, the geezer shit himself end of, that’s fair enough but don’t be a copper then if your bollocks are gonna go when it all kicks off.

Moshe Gariani · Oct 10, 2018

Interesting debate. I'm sure most of those commenting don't have sufficient information about what actually happened to really make a judgement so I won't let that stop me joining in...

I'm with the people who have moved on a bit from seeing pointless sacrifice as noble bravery. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori...?

portlock seagull · Oct 10, 2018

Deportivo Seagull said:
Utter crap. Those of us criticising him is because of his total inaction and dereliction of duty. He basically left it to others when he was arguably best qualified to act. At a minimum distracting the attacker until fire arm officers turned up would have been of benefit. He didn’t. During other attacks members of the public did just this by shouting abuse and throwing anything that came to hand.
You might note that those of us that are most critical of his actions are those that spent time in the forces. Leaving your oppo/colleague in the shit is an absolute no no. He fell well short of what was expected of him by his colleagues.

That's where I stopped reading your response - you're unable to understand the events in real time and can be added to the list of moronic keyboard warriors full of faux outrage, manipulated by press and prejudice. You really have no idea, your simple interpretation betrays this and as I said, you're better off keeping quiet than making a remark that removes all doubt: alas, too late!

Bold Seagull · Oct 10, 2018

Commander said:
Yes, I think being at the top of the tree is the most important thing here. If this was your family being attacked then you would have gone straight in without a second thought. You wouldn't have thought "No point in me being killed as well, I'm better of sorting out the aftermath", would you? And that is how this guy should have thought about his officers. His men.

I agree there is a problem with click-bait headlines and the amount of people that form rash opinions, but I don't think that is the case here. The fact is that he is the leader, and leaders should lead from the front, and that means putting yourself in harm's way if the shit hits the fan. That's the deal when you take the top job.

Notice how almost all the military types on here are in agreement about this guy's actions. They are better placed to pass judgement than we are.

You keep mentioning the military, which is of course completely separate from a civilian police force, however given I have no experience of military matters, other than what I've seen and read, I'm minded of the Band of Brothers scene for the Battle of Foy which based on accounts, and veterans who said it was an accurate portrayal of events, when Dike leads Easy into a bad position and basically fails mentally, Major Winters is about to run to help his men, but Colonel Sink grabs his arm and says you can't go, you are leading the whole operation, and of course Sink had no intention whatsoever of getting involved. It's a crucial scene as it shows the progression of Winters from soldier to leader and that he is no longer leading his men in actual combat, he is leading them operationally. Of course if he goes, gets shot, chain of command is broken, and it might have been even worse.

As it was, the attack on Palmer had finished, no one else was in harms way at that point, he surely would have known how quickly armed response reacts at Parliament, some 90 secs after the attack. He did perhaps freeze and his actions may have been as others describe, none of us can be sure though, perhaps witnesses can be, the armed response officers, the people in the car, maybe those in the force that know, but a witch hunt through social media branding him a coward - not for me I'm afraid.

portlock seagull · Oct 10, 2018

Commander said:
How exactly did he put his life on the line on this particular day?

Moment he puts on his uniform as they say. Such a top officer is a nice target for all sorts of criminals. You and I don't know the specific dangers he's faced throughout his career, and not throwing himself under the bus in a pointless act just to appease internet simpletons with their witless post-event interpretations was the right thing to do. As I've said, 2 dead coppers is not a better situation to be in than 1 - IMO obviously, contentious as that appears to be on NSC

Deportivo Seagull · Oct 10, 2018

portlock seagull said:
That's where I stopped reading your response - you're unable to understand the events in real time and can be added to the list of moronic keyboard warriors full of faux outrage, manipulated by press and prejudice. You really have no idea, your simple interpretation betrays this and as I said, you're better off keeping quiet than making a remark that removes all doubt: alas, too late!

Really .... i think your interpretation shows a distinct lack of understanding as to what is expected of our police officers. It also shows a lack of understanding of what those that wear or have worn a uniform expect of there superiors and colleagues.

lost in london · Oct 10, 2018

Deportivo Seagull said:
Utter crap. Those of us criticising him is because of his total inaction and dereliction of duty. He basically left it to others when he was arguably best qualified to act. At a minimum distracting the attacker until fire arm officers turned up would have been of benefit. He didn’t. During other attacks members of the public did just this by shouting abuse and throwing anything that came to hand.
You might note that those of us that are most critical of his actions are those that spent time in the forces. Leaving your oppo/colleague in the shit is an absolute no no. He fell well short of what was expected of him by his colleagues.

How can he be best qualified to act when he was unarmed? When two plain-clothed protection officers had run past him with their handguns drawn? What could he possible have added to benefit the situation?

Some people have said he could have acted as a distraction - honestly, how can a 50+ year old man helpfully distract from that situation? Stand on top of the car waving his arms around?

This bloke's job and skill set was to command the response, perhaps back in the day it would have been to wade in, jobs change.

Commander · Oct 10, 2018

portlock seagull said:
Moment he puts on his uniform as they say. Such a top officer is a nice target for all sorts of criminals. You and I don't know the specific dangers he's faced throughout his career, and not throwing himself under the bus in a pointless act just to appease internet simpletons with their witless post-event interpretations was the right thing to do. As I've said, 2 dead coppers is not a better situation to be in than 1 - IMO obviously, contentious as that appears to be on NSC

Well this time he really did have a chance to put his life on the line for his men and for the public, and he chose not to. If I was serving under him then that would answer a lot of questions for me.

portlock seagull · Oct 10, 2018

Commander said:
Well this time he really did have a chance to put his life on the line for his men and for the public, and he chose not to. If I was serving under him then that would answer a lot of questions for me.

No he didn't; you're not; and I doubt any of those who do would, because they understand the situation.

Charlies Shinpad · Oct 10, 2018

Correct.
If that man was in charge of me after what happened that day I wouldn't want him watching my back at any time and any loyalty I had for him would have gone down the pan.
Doesn't matter what rank you are etc you are a public servant and paid to protect them and your fellow brothers.
Bloke has no balls at all imho

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Commander · Oct 10, 2018

portlock seagull said:
No he didn't; you're not; and I doubt any of those who do would, because they understand the situation.

I'm just glad that you're able to speak for the entire police force.

Charlies Shinpad · Oct 10, 2018

Says it all really

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n1 gull · Oct 10, 2018

portlock seagull said:
No he didn't; you're not; and I doubt any of those who do would, because they understand the situation.

What makes you an expert on the situation, were you there? You are just running around this thread screaming. It's a decent fair debate, so why don't you just shut up for a minute you might learn something

Bry Nylon · Oct 10, 2018

Deportivo Seagull said:
Leaving your oppo/colleague in the shit is an absolute no no..

This, for me, sums it up perfectly.

DIFFBROOK · Oct 10, 2018

In his career, he would in all likelihood have only been faced with a theoretical situation - it is very easy to say I would do this and that in that situation. None of us knows - even in a job as his or even the Army (there have been many who have crumbled under fire), how we would act in a real situation. I cant blame him for not putting his life on the line, but definitely he should now stand down as he cannot now ask others to do what he has found in himself that he cannot do.

Commander · Oct 10, 2018

Charlies Shinpad said:
Says it all really

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Yes but that guy once said something racist on camera, so he is EVIL. The WORST crime imaginable.

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[News] Craig Mackey , cowardly copper

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