[Politics] The Battle For Britain's Heroes

A1X · May 30, 2018

I'm far more worried about people who make bad decisions impacting people right now through their prejudices than people who did it a century ago TBH.

Churchill is an unusual case in history as by and large he wasn't actually very good at almost anything he did, apart from one major exception. His political career was littered with failures (Gallipoli, the Gold Standard, his attempts to crush the NHS in the early 1950s) but there is one major, stand-out exception. He's basically the Jiri Skalak of British politics.

Brovion · May 30, 2018

Brovion said:
I'm interested to see how this goes in America. There is an (understandable) backlash against Southern civil war figures - but what's the real social difference between George Washington and Robert E Lee? Washington was a slave-owner, are the Americans going to tear down every monument to Washington and rename their capital Potomacville?

Quoting my own post, but which American said: "I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters of the negroes, or jurors, or qualifying them to hold office, of having them to marry with white people."

It was Abraham Lincoln. Get that statue down!

portlock seagull · May 30, 2018

A1X said:
I'm far more worried about people who make bad decisions impacting people right now through their prejudices than people who did it a century ago TBH.

Churchill is an unusual case in history as by and large he wasn't actually very good at almost anything he did, apart from one major exception. His political career was littered with failures (Gallipoli, the Gold Standard, his attempts to crush the NHS in the early 1950s) but there is one major, stand-out exception. He's basically the Jiri Skalak of British politics.

Hungry Joe · May 30, 2018

A1X said:
He's basically the Jiri Skalak of British politics.

Take a bow sir! :lolol:

Brian Fantana · May 30, 2018

GT49er said:
Oh dear, once again someone is demonstrating that they don't understand the idiocy of trying to judge historical figures by the ethics and mores of the present day It's just stupid. Was Nelson in favour of slavery? Yes, of course he was, it was the way of the world at the time - anti-slavery views were at best in their infancy; did Rhodes believe in white supremacy? Of course he bloody did - he would have been taught that right the way through his upbringing and education.
They still performed great deeds. You can take any number of people who have been heroes of British history (and probably the same for anybody else's history) and then pick out things they did which wouldn't be acceptable today. Drake, Raleigh, William the Conqueror, Boadicea - and countless more - you really wouldn't want to bump into on a dark night these days!

Nail on head.

shingle · May 30, 2018

erkan said:
On C4 at the moment.

How should we deal with heroes dark pasts?

Churchill's affirmed racism and Nelson's advocacy of slavery can surely not just be ignored...?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Simple .... Run for a safe space. :thumbsup:

Husty · May 30, 2018

So when it comes to racism and slavery it's time to move on, but when it comes to awarding medals to people who served in a war that ended almost 75 years ago, it's never too late to recognise it? Hmmmm...

rocker959 · May 30, 2018

Bloody snowflakes grrrrrrrrrrrr

Icy Gull · May 30, 2018

Has Cecil Rhodes had a mention yet? I know there was a bit of a furore because foreign students (or maybe it was people being concerned on their behalf) objected to his statue at Oriel College Oxford. Fortunately the vote ensured it remained, not that it should ever have been an issue imo.

maltaseagull · May 30, 2018

erkan said:
On C4 at the moment.

How should we deal with heroes dark pasts?

Churchill's affirmed racism and Nelson's advocacy of slavery can surely not just be ignored...?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Not sure modern day opinions and standards can be applied to history.

jakarta · May 30, 2018

Husty said:
..... when it comes to awarding medals to people who served in a war that ended almost 75 years ago, it's never too late to recognise it? Hmmmm...

A war against Fascism, fought within living memory, which had we not won it would probably mean that there would be no internet as we know it and certainly no NSC for you to spout on. But do carry on.

mikeyjh · May 30, 2018

Husty said:
So when it comes to racism and slavery it's time to move on, but when it comes to awarding medals to people who served in a war that ended almost 75 years ago, it's never too late to recognise it? Hmmmm...

Precisely - While the likes of Wilberforce were dedicating their lives to the abolition of slavery, Nelson et al were vigorously defending and supporting the forced transportation of millions of Africans to 'our' colonies. People like Nelson knew that the use of slaves was evil but it served for him and his friends to grow their wealth, an appalling man.

The Clamp · May 30, 2018

I don't think attitudes of people have changed that much. They manifest themselves in different ways and some have to be hidden but on the whole not much has changed. Some wealthy and influential people will always screw over people they deem to be lesser men than them, support slave labour, play dirty to maintain their position and squash reform. Some wealthy and influential people always help others and push for favourable reform.

Simster · May 30, 2018

I'd rather statues were left as they were, but the teaching of our heroes was a bit more honest. Just allow people to recognise that even heroes are/were flawed people.

Tom Bombadil · May 30, 2018

Simster said:
. Just allow people to recognise that even heroes are/were flawed people.

I think this is the problem. For too many people historical figures ( and actually most modern famous people) have to be sorted into binary categories of Hero/ Villain. There's no nuance involved.

wardy wonder land · May 30, 2018

Tyrone Biggums said:
It's a slippery slope If you go down that path, people like Malcolm X, Ghandi, Muhammed Ali etc have to be seen in the same light.

i caught the last 5mins of the program, and that was my thought

for balance the same needs to be done on the terorist background of Mandela, Che Givara, and also point out the good deeds done by AH, starlin etc

Diablo · May 30, 2018

jakarta said:
Never mind them, guess what Guy Gibson called his Dog?

****** was a male black labrador retriever belonging to Wing Commander Guy Gibson of the Royal Air Force, and the mascot of No. 617 Squadron. Gibson owned the dog when he was previously a member of 106 Squadron.

Spicy · May 30, 2018

erkan said:
On C4 at the moment.

How should we deal with heroes dark pasts?

Churchill's affirmed racism and Nelson's advocacy of slavery can surely not just be ignored...?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

That was then and this is now - we cannot right all of the wrongs of the past just learn from them.

The Clamp · May 30, 2018

wardy wonder land said:
i caught the last 5mins of the program, and that was my thought

for balance the same needs to be done on the terorist background of Mandela, Che Givara, and also point out the good deeds done by AH, starlin etc

Please tell me you are taking the Mick? oh and starlin is spelt Stalin.

Diablo · May 30, 2018

The Clamp said:
Please tell me you are taking the Mick? oh and starlin is spelt Stalin.

Yes of course he meant Joseph Stalin however...... Starlin (Jim) is a comic artist who may have done some good deeds.

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[Politics] The Battle For Britain's Heroes

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