[Politics] Gender pay gap

Johnny RoastBeef · Apr 4, 2018

dazzer6666 said:
Correct......the way the data has been compiled and reported is so flawed it’s ridiculous. It takes no account of the typically relative numbers of more senior male people in many organisations (which is a separate issue and also being subject to some pretty daft forced manipulation through positive discrimination in many firms now)

It’s worse than pointless though - it’s inflammatory, inaccurate and dangerous, and May’s comments (‘burning injustice’ ?) are equally stupid.

The gender pay gap is used to highlight the disproportionate number of men holding senior level jobs in all orginastions, not the difference in pay between men and women.

Without the data it would be impossible to gauge the levels of women in highly paid jobs, this is not flawed, just a reflection of how the ground lies at this time. Without the figures to prove an imbalance how can we break the glass ceiling imposed on women and ensure that our wives and daughters get an equal opportunity to fulfil their potential? Your comments come across as masojonistic and outdated, are you intimidated by women?

knocky1 · Apr 4, 2018

When John Humphreys retires the UK wage gender gap will be closed.

TWOCHOICEStom · Apr 4, 2018

I hope this initiative kicks some companies into action, because there are no doubt shit ones out there. But the Ryanair exmaple shows exactly why the stats don't give the whole story.

Only eight of Ryanair’s 554 UK-based pilots are female, while women make up more than two-thirds of the low-paid cabin crew.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...reveals-worst-gender-pay-gap-airline-industry

beorhthelm · Apr 4, 2018

Johnny RoastBeef said:
The gender pay gap is used to highlight the disproportionate number of men holding senior level jobs in all orginastions, not the difference in pay between men and women.

Without the data it would be impossible to gauge the levels of women in highly paid jobs, this is not flawed, just a reflection of how the ground lies at this time. Without the figures to prove an imbalance how can we break the glass ceiling imposed on women and ensure that our wives and daughters get an equal opportunity to fulfil their potential? Your comments come across as masojonistic and outdated, are you intimidated by women?

the reports do not highlight disparity in gender of senior roles, they have only used a crude benchmark of median pay differentials across the entire business. they also fail to recognise the tendency for women to take career breaks, take up part time positions or generally have differing priorities when negotiating pay and conditions, where men tend to push for money, women for flexible working hours. it is not misogyny to say this, just observation of well known and documented trends. in the cohort of women graduates up to 30 the pay gap disappears. strangely, something happens in the next cohort 30-40 that changes that, can you guess what it is?

dazzer6666 · Apr 4, 2018

Johnny RoastBeef said:
The gender pay gap is used to highlight the disproportionate number of men holding senior level jobs in all orginastions, not the difference in pay between men and women.

Without the data it would be impossible to gauge the levels of women in highly paid jobs, this is not flawed, just a reflection of how the ground lies at this time. Without the figures to prove an imbalance how can we break the glass ceiling imposed on women and ensure that our wives and daughters get an equal opportunity to fulfil their potential? Your comments come across as masojonistic and outdated, are you intimidated by women?

Haha. What bollocks.

The gender gap in senior roles, and relative pay, is absolutely an issue but this data does nothing to deal with that as it mixes the two things in a confusing way.

I don't think so. For what it's worth my ultimate boss is female (and brilliant) and my 14 directors are evenly split male/female.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

hoveboyslim · Apr 4, 2018

goldstone said:
These are the most stupid statistics ever. Airlines have a massive gender pay gap because pilots get paid a lot of money and there are not many women pilots. How can the airlines be blamed because not many women want to fly aeroplanes? The whole exercise is completely pointless.

But that is completely the point. How do you know women don't want to fly planes? When men say 'not many women want to fly planes' it reinforces a stereotype that men do one type of job and women do another (that is generally paid less).

This is not about individual companies, or sectors. It is about society; why women are generally in the lower paid jobs and why men are in the higher paid ones?

It is a debate that is very necessary.

mejonaNO12 aka riskit · Apr 4, 2018

hoveboyslim said:
But that is completely the point. How do you know women don't want to fly planes? .

women can't fly planes. They have tiny brains.

It's science.

dazzer6666 · Apr 4, 2018

hoveboyslim said:
But that is completely the point. How do you know women don't want to fly planes? When men say 'not many women want to fly planes' it reinforces a stereotype that men do one type of job and women do another (that is generally paid less).

This is not about individual companies, or sectors. It is about society; why women are generally in the lower paid jobs and why men are in the higher paid ones?

It is a debate that is very necessary.

Agree there are definitely issues, but comingled pay data doesn’t really help...........would be better to see the number of pilots, their time in the job and how many of each gender apply to, and are successful in getting training positions, subsequently qualify etc etc. Drive out any issues with gender bias at that level.

Pay is then the secondary consideration which can be examined by comparing people actually doing the same job with similar relevant experience rather than trying to compare a 60 year old male captain who has been flying for 40 years with a newly hired female cabin crew........

Questions · Apr 4, 2018

mejonaNO12 aka riskit said:
women can't fly planes. They have tiny brains.

It's science.

And they have to push that big heavy joystick up and down which is heavy. :thumbsup:

hoveboyslim · Apr 4, 2018

dazzer6666 said:
Agree there are definitely issues, but comingled pay data doesn’t really help...........would be better to see the number of pilots, their time in the job and how many of each gender apply to, and are successful in getting training positions, subsequently qualify etc etc. Drive out any issues with gender bias at that level.

Pay is then the secondary consideration which can be examined by comparing people actually doing the same job with similar relevant experience rather than trying to compare a 60 year old male captain who has been flying for 40 years with a newly hired female cabin crew........

Agreed, it is a crude survey at the moment. Hopefully it will be refined in future. Have to start somewhere though.

pb21 · Apr 4, 2018

dazzer6666 said:
Agree there are definitely issues, but comingled pay data doesn’t really help...........would be better to see the number of pilots, their time in the job and how many of each gender apply to, and are successful in getting training positions, subsequently qualify etc etc. Drive out any issues with gender bias at that level.

Pay is then the secondary consideration which can be examined by comparing people actually doing the same job with similar relevant experience rather than trying to compare a 60 year old male captain who has been flying for 40 years with a newly hired female cabin crew........

I disagree, having a broad overarching figure is helpful.

If the average male worker is earning 20/30% more than the average female worker, then that does suggest something; either society generally undervalues women or woman earn less essentially through choice, or a combination of both.

dazzer6666 · Apr 4, 2018

hoveboyslim said:
Agreed, it is a crude survey at the moment. Hopefully it will be refined in future. Have to start somewhere though.

Suspect the companies that are treating this seriously will have much more granular underlying data and action plans.......just a shame that what’s been headlined is a jumbled mess without context, presumably to grab the news. It’ll put most people in one of two camps - outrage at the gap, or just laughing at the data when the real answer is hidden.....

Johnny RoastBeef · Apr 4, 2018

beorhthelm said:
the reports do not highlight disparity in gender of senior roles, they have only used a crude benchmark of median pay differentials across the entire business. they also fail to recognise the tendency for women to take career breaks, take up part time positions or generally have differing priorities when negotiating pay and conditions, where men tend to push for money, women for flexible working hours. it is not misogyny to say this, just observation of well known and documented trends. in the cohort of women graduates up to 30 the pay gap disappears. strangely, something happens in the next cohort 30-40 that changes that, can you guess what it is?

You are correct in some regards, most men push harder for greater pay, but without a change in attitudes, those women who are driven to succeed in business are still being held back by their gender. There is an inherent bias towards men when filling senior management positions. This report, however floored, is a positive step in the right direction.

I speak from experience having a wife who has three children and is a director of massive organisation, yet she is still in the great minority.

To say children are a cause of the gender pay gap is not true. The 30-40 cohort are just hitting the glass ceiling which needs addressing. Why should taking time to have a family be reason to halt career progression? At the senior levels we are discussing most women take a minimum amount of maternity leave and return to work before their full entitlement is used. This is insufficient reason for the large discrepancies found in the data.

The real reason, in my view, is that men struggle to see women as leaders.

dazzer6666 · Apr 4, 2018

pb21 said:
I disagree, having a broad overarching figure is helpful.

If the average male worker is earning 20/30% more than the average female worker, then that does suggest something; either society generally undervalues women or woman earn less essentially through choice, or a combination of both.

Not necessarily......what is that ‘average’ worker doing ? Data has to be more granular and meaningful to establish the gaps, and then the reasons for them.

What the headlines say here are that, lumping every make together, regardless of what job they do, and every female, shows that, on average, men are paid more than women. It’s too crude.

Insufficient female representation in more senior jobs ? Absolutely, and lots being done to address this in some places.

Pay differential in COMPARABLE jobs ? I simply don’t see it where I am but sure it is an issue in some places.

I guess it has at least further raises awareness.......

dazzer6666 · Apr 4, 2018

Johnny RoastBeef said:
You are correct in some regards, most men push harder for greater pay, but without a change in attitudes, those women who are driven to succeed in business are still being held back by their gender. There is an inherent bias towards men when filling senior management positions. This report, however floored, is a positive step in the right direction.

I speak from experience having a wife who has three children and is a director of massive organisation, yet she is still in the great minority.

To say children are a cause of the gender pay gap is not true. The 30-40 cohort are just hitting the glass ceiling which needs addressing. Why should taking time to have a family be reason to halt career progression? At the senior levels we are discussing most women take a minimum amount of maternity leave and return to work before their full entitlement is used. This is insufficient reason for the large discrepancies found in the data.

The real reason, in my view, is that men struggle to see women as leaders.

A career break should have no impact on career progression.......I’ve seen examples where males get praised for taking a sabbatical, yet somehow taking time off to have kids is sometimes seen as a negative factor. Just wrong.

Audax · Apr 4, 2018

dazzer6666 said:
Massive can of worms this due to the difficulties in comparing not just jobs/roles, but the relative experience of individuals etc. I’ve got a real example at the moment of someone complaining that another person in the team is paid a bit more than them........the higher paid person has more experience, better qualifications and has been in the job longer and was recruited from an organisation that pays more than where the other person came from (so lots of factors) but apparently the pay difference is ‘because he’s male’.

Publication of the data will lead to even more issues. Of course, where I have other people in the team where the females are paid more than the males (for similar reasons) this’ll be ignored........

Absolutely agree on this. The way the data is being reported on the gov website is so flawed it's not funny. I know the company I work for, the main reason for the "pay gap" is that there's substantially more women working in part-time roles and roles that are lower paid. The way the numbers are being reported, it would be entirely possible for a company to be paying 100% equally: for any given job role, male and female employees are paid *identical* amounts. But then if you have more women in lower paid roles and more men in higher paid roles (which may or may not be in the companies ability to control ... if you advertise a job and no women apply, you can't hire a woman), the numbers on the gov website are going to suggest you have a gender pay gap.

That's just ... wrong.

Johnny RoastBeef · Apr 4, 2018

dazzer6666 said:
Haha. What bollocks.

The gender gap in senior roles, and relative pay, is absolutely an issue but this data does nothing to deal with that as it mixes the two things in a confusing way.

I don't think so. For what it's worth my ultimate boss is female (and brilliant) and my 14 directors are evenly split male/female.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

Then your company is in the great minority, as women make up only 22% of UK boardrooms.

However, I should apologies for misentrepriting your distain for the report as something else.

dazzer6666 · Apr 4, 2018

Johnny RoastBeef said:
Then your company is in the great minority, as women make up on 22% of UK boardrooms.

However, I should apologies for misentrepriting your distain for the report as something else.

Not sure about the whole company...I've heard a fair bit about 'enclaves'....

No need to apologise either, the debate is a good one.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

nwgull · Apr 4, 2018

hoveboyslim said:
But that is completely the point. How do you know women don't want to fly planes? When men say 'not many women want to fly planes' it reinforces a stereotype that men do one type of job and women do another (that is generally paid less).

This is not about individual companies, or sectors. It is about society; why women are generally in the lower paid jobs and why men are in the higher paid ones?

It is a debate that is very necessary.

My missus is very intelligent, university educated and in a senior management position at a school. She’s just phoned me from her car (her own car, not mine that she’s borrowed) to ask how to tune the radio back in to 5 Live.

Would you seriously want someone with a brain like that behind the controls of a plane that you’re a passenger on?!

Westdene Seagull · Apr 4, 2018

dazzer6666 said:
Massive can of worms this due to the difficulties in comparing not just jobs/roles, but the relative experience of individuals etc. I’ve got a real example at the moment of someone complaining that another person in the team is paid a bit more than them........the higher paid person has more experience, better qualifications and has been in the job longer and was recruited from an organisation that pays more than where the other person came from (so lots of factors) but apparently the pay difference is ‘because he’s male’.

Publication of the data will lead to even more issues. Of course, where I have other people in the team where the females are paid more than the males (for similar reasons) this’ll be ignored........

I agree with every point you raise except this one "was recruited from an organisation that pays more than where the other person came from" - this 'excuse' for offering less really annoys me. It's one reason that in interviews in the past I've refused to give my current salary and instead have turned the question around by asking what they are paying for the role. It's also a reason that in the past I've inflated my current package.

Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

[Politics] Gender pay gap

These aren't the players you're looking for.

Well-known member

Well-known member

A. Virgo, Football Genius

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Habitual User

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

These aren't the players you're looking for.

Well-known member

Well-known member

Boing boing boing...

These aren't the players you're looking for.

Well-known member

Well-known member

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch

Share this page