Found it: http://www.espn.co.uk/cricket/story...ode-conduct-ball-tampering-set-bigger-offence
Some very telling quotes here from the head of the ICC itself, which essentially echo the exact point I've been trying to make in this thread.
Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊
[Cricket] Aussie Cheats!
- Thread starter lawros left foot
- Start date
Found it: http://www.espn.co.uk/cricket/story...ode-conduct-ball-tampering-set-bigger-offence
Some very telling quotes here from the head of the ICC itself, which essentially echo the exact point I've been trying to make in this thread.
I agree that the sugar in pocket thing is a red herring.
What isn't is the FACT that Warner was in charge of ball maintenance prior to the sandpaper test. The FACT that Warner was under huge scrutiny for the strapping on his hand / fingers. The FACT that Warner was the one the South Africans were concerned about when wondering why the ball was reversing so early. Oh and the FACT that ball maintenance duties were then passed to Bancroft who then, in the very first test that he was given that role, was persuaded by Warner to take sandpaper onto the field and alter the ball.
If you look at the facts and conclude that this was just a one off incident then you must be either very gullible or Australian. Or both.
What isn't is the FACT that Warner was in charge of ball maintenance prior to the sandpaper test. The FACT that Warner was under huge scrutiny for the strapping on his hand / fingers. The FACT that Warner was the one the South Africans were concerned about when wondering why the ball was reversing so early. Oh and the FACT that ball maintenance duties were then passed to Bancroft who then, in the very first test that he was given that role, was persuaded by Warner to take sandpaper onto the field and alter the ball.
If you look at the facts and conclude that this was just a one off incident then you must be either very gullible or Australian. Or both.
Bodyline?
But more seriously: Yeah, agree wholeheartedly that the Aussie team culture has been toxic for a while. Things have been said amongst the sledging that really should never have been said. On the other hand, from what I can tell the entire sorry saga of SAf vs Aus this time around ... it would be good to see the Saffers shoulder some of the responsibility as well. There were things said to Warner, about his wife and family, that should never have made it onto a cricket field - things that I suspect played a part in Warner making the decisions he did (colleague here at work made an interesting observation that it was de Kock out in the middle when Warner hatched his plan). Also on the Saffers side, it wasn't limited to the players. Two high-level members of CSA were involved in an unsavory incident (fans with masks alluding to Warner's wife's history) targeted at Warner; not sure if anything has come of that, as the ball tampering row has taken that story out of the press.
The Aussies are the undisputed leaders when it comes to shredding the spirit of cricket in recent years, but if we're honest with ourselves South Africa aren't far behind them and there's not many teams that can honestly say they've not pushed the boundaries of that spirit. The only team I can think of currently that I'd hold in high regard is New Zealand.
ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
Humiliation for Lehmann and his team in his last game.
South Africa WIN by 492 runs
#shame
There it now sits in 2nd place in the all time biggest defeats by runs in Tests for Australia:
1 675 runs England - Brisbane Exhibition Ground, Brisbane, Australia, 30 November 1928
2 492 runs South Africa - Wanderers Stadium, Johannesburg, South Africa, 3 April 2018
3 408 runs West Indies - Adelaide Oval, Adelaide, Australia, 26 January 1980
4 356 runs Pakistan - Zayed Sports City Stadium, Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates, 30 October 2014
5 347 runs England - Lord's, London, England, 18 July 2013
A significant game that. It was Bradman's test debut and the first time ever that a test team declared. I also note that Australia batted one short in the first innings and two short in the second, that could partly explain the size of the defeat. They also had to face Larwood, who took eight wickets.
I think evidence is mounting that Warner may have been doing something he shouldn't have been for a while. If he was, I'm reasonably confident he was acting alone. It might go a long way towards explaining why the quicks didn't spot anything untoward - if Warner's been doing it for a while, they won't have seen anything unexpected. I've seen an English player comment recently that county cricket sees its fair share of rough-side roughing-up through the simple approach of dragging the rough side on the concrete gutters when collecting the ball after a boundary. It's possible Warner may have been taking advantage of any boundaries to then put a scuff onto the rough side, but not doing it at other times.
I saw one article that mentions a janitor or some minor official claims to have seen Warner inserting sandpaper into his strapping, but so far I've not seen any reporting of that claim from prior to the Bancroft incident which puts a little doubt on it for me - it's very easy to generate such a claim and have it taken seriously when there's already a proven incident on the table. If you've seen any reports of that sandpaper-in-the-strapping claim that data before the third test, I'd happily read it. At some point when I have time I'll see if I can dig up any footage of Warner's ball-maintenance technique that date from when he's had the strapping on his hands.
Another thought, though, is that it's also possible Australia's recent ability to find reverse swing is actually thanks to Lyon, and that England's inability to get it reversing in the Ashes was the lack of a quality, in form spinner. There's an article floating around that explains how a skilled spin bowler can assist the process of scuffing up the rough side.
(Worth noting that Cummins was still getting reverse in the 4th test)
ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
A timeless Test I assume?
I was at Lord's for the 2nd day of that 2013 Test - I didn't realise that was one of the top 5.
Pinkie Brown
I'll look after the skirt
What is now bizarre; I read there have been calls in some quarters to give the coaching roll to Shane Warne! If CA wish to change the culture of the Australian team, I would struggle to think of a more unsuitable person. Another name in the frame is Justin Langer. The same Langer who in a test in Sri Lanka years back, sneakily whipped a bail off when passing the stumps whilst returning to position. Some members of the team then appealed to the umpire, the batsman had hit his wicket when playing his previous shot. A lot of the underhand and unacceptable stuff originated around the Waugh leadership era and has got worse over time.
Ponting's name has come up as well.
I think I'd rather see a non-Australian coach come in and oversee the future development of the side. As much as it makes me cringe saying it, being an Aussie, but I think I'd like to see a Kiwi take on the role. Someone who was involved in the McCullum era, maybe even McCullum himself despite his extreme lack of experience as a coach (assuming he has any interest in coaching...).
Or you could go with Langer (despite the bail-tipping, which I suspect was a bit of cheekiness gone wrong rather than anything more untoward) but make sure he's got some of those Kiwis in the staff to help direct the team in the right direction. Regardless of who gets the coaching role, I do firmly believe we'll be seeing a very different Australian team culture in future. Paine's been confirmed as the permanent appointment as captain, and from what I've seen he's very definitely not cut from the same cloth as the Waugh-and-onwards era captains. We've got a nice-guy captain now.
No, it wasn't - the two Aussie innings between them only lasted 76 overs (England had just over 300 overs). Probably didn't go long into the fourth day,
I was wrong about it being the first test to feature a declaration - it was just the first test in Australia to do so. It was also the first Brisbane test
Worried Man Blues
Well-known member
Cheating then dragging their wives in and giving them a family kiss in front of the cameras, wiffey then saying "It's all my fault". Cheating is one level but this all crying. Cricket or money means soo much to them they would stoop to this level. I feel exactly the same when our lot do it, it's calculated and it's sickening.
One reason is going to be the success of a team. If a team that usually loses is found to be cheating then so what? Australia wins a lot, and manages to do so thanks to getting the ball to move when others can't.
Oh, so it's not Australia's fault, it's cricket in general.
So what was he doing putting lose sugar in his pocket? Please don't bore me with 'he uses it for energy'. When casual people do a marathon they stock up on energy gels etc. If sugar is more your thing, you'd have cubes in a little bag that you can go to. A professional sportsman wouldn't be eating lose sugar out of his pocket.
Wow. Although you say it was 100% wrong, you're in complete denial and trying to make excuses.
Tears because of the backlash, not because of what they'd done. In the first interview after the event (you know, the one where they were still lying and pretending it was sticky tape, not sandpaper) they weren't crying with shame, and Smith said he wasn't even going to stand down as captain. He's only crying now following the response to their cheating.
So as seen from the first interview, Smith also doesn't understand what cricket means to Australians?
alfredmizen
Banned
- Mar 11, 2015
- 6,342
i followed the link as well , it amazes me that nobody ever went into the aussie dressing room and fronted the sledgers .
Oh come on. Let's not tar the other two with Warner's miss-steps here. I happen to agree he's a scrote who deserves (almost) everything coming at him. But the other two ... no, no I don't think they deserve this demonisation. They're (all three of them) real people, and they feel real emotions just like you, me, and everyone else on the street. Laying into them because they've shown that emotion in a presser is so easy to do, but it doesn't show you in good light - quite the opposite, actually.
These guys did the wrong thing, they've accepted that, and they're paying the price. That's not just cricket and money, it's their lives that have been devoted to the sport for so, so long. It's guys who were living their dreams only to make a mistake and lose it all (at least temporarily, potentially permanently in the case of Warner). It's all that, plus having that happen as an Aussie, where the culture holds that cricket team in such high regard ... it's hard to explain. But the way these three have been treated, compared with problems with behaviour in other sports, might go some way to helping explain.
Kalimantan Gull
Well-known member
From the ACA:
"The contrition shown by these men is extraordinary. We ask for this extraordinary contrition to be taken into account by Cricket Australia just as it would be in any fair or proper process. Their distressed faces have sent a message across the globe as effective as any sanctions could be. Australia cried with Steve Smith last Thursday. I certainly did. We expect this contrition to be taken into account."
Who can agree with this - "look, they're crying, aaaah, let's let them off after all". Its certainly sent a message across the globe - show remorse that you got caught cheating, everything is fine. Sake. Take the punishment properly, please.
How long ago was it that Smith and Bancroft were sitting in a press conference performing some comedy routine about Bairstow and the 'head- butting' non-incident. What goes around comes around.
Agreed.
Not what I'm saying at all. That's your own complete misinterpretation. I think I've said plenty in this thread already to make it clear that I fully accept that what the Aussie players did was wrong. If you want me to be clear on this: they were trying to cheat.
What I *am* saying is that the same sort of cheating (to greater or lesser extent) has been going on in the sport for a long time. Ball tampering is not a new issue, and it's one that has historically been dealt with poorly. Even the ICC can see that, so I'm not sure why you keep fighting against it? Is it because you can't see beyond the opportunity to cut the Aussies down and grind them into the dust?
I have no idea what he was doing with it. But here's an alternative view on that footage: https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/c...eted-sugar-actually-chewing-gum-ng-b88788448z
And even if it was, let's not forget the footage of Anderson cleaning the quarter seam; something that the rules stipulate must be done under umpire supervision (to prevent ball tampering), but he instead chose to do on his own while bending over the ball. He was cleared for that, but maybe we should revisit it (despite the lack of evidence of any actual ball tampering) given you're so gung-ho on this sugar thing (despite a lack of evidence that whatever it was actually went anywhere near the ball)?
Seriously: drop the witch hunt on the "sugar" / "gum" thing and stick to the stuff that can actually has some supporting evidence that ball tampering actually took place.
Nope, you've got me wrong again. I'm just looking at the evidence that is in front of us and trying to understand how things went so wrong. It's now common knowledge that Smith wasn't involved in any of the planning; he just became aware of it and chose not to explicitly stop it from happening. It's entirely plausible that Smith's involvement was pure naivety. Of course, it's also just as plausible that he was implying his consent to what they were doing. I suspect we'll never know what was actually going through his mind at that point of time. Anyway, to be clear: whether it was naivety, or turning a blind eye, he was in the wrong. He failed in his leadership role. He absolutely should have stepped in as soon as he saw them doing what they were doing and told them categorically not to do it on the field, and that he would hang them out to dry if they did. That he didn't will be his shame to carry for the rest of his life.
That first interview should never have happened: they were thrust in front of the cameras, without any support, in a mental state that clearly wasn't appropriate for making public statements. One key thing to remember here is that first interview took place against a backdrop ("ok, it's ball tampering, but we'll own up and it'll all go away because it always has in the past") that then changed rapidly (Aussie public outrage, that then triggered global outrage). Surely their emotional reactions are allowed to change as the situation changes? That they lied (Bancroft) and stretched the truth (Smith) in that interview was wrong as well.
That doesn't mean their emotions now are false, and it certainly doesn't excuse anyone using those emotions to further attack them. That, in my eyes, is despicable: it's the sort of thing that leads to young folks being scared to reveal their emotions, and we know that hiding emotions leads to unhappy events for too many people.
Attack them for what they did: go for it. All good in my eyes, they deserve it.
Worried Man Blues
Well-known member
Well I would have banned Sharapova for life etc etc. But maybe that's just the way I like sport played. I see your Aus. Cricketers Assoc are now bleating for leniency. The cheating was premeditated that's what gets me, if it was a spur of the moment, in the heat of the battle yes possibly but this was planned, I have no sympathy. Whatever the nationality, we can be just as stupid your lot but we should live or fail by our mistakes, letting them off gives the wrong message.
I know you have, but it does then undermine that stance when you say "What hurts in all this isn't so much that it's the Aussies who've caused the latest scandal, but that cricket as a sport has allowed this failure to happen"
Despite calling them cheats, you are putting a lot of the blame with the ICC.
I agree with you.
I'm not fighting against it, cheating has happened for longer that we've been around. And it's nothing to do with Aussie bashing, I'm still anti Linford Christie because he was caught cheating, despite him being the only British 100m Olympic champion I've seen. India cheated in every test back in the days, and Pakistan had their share. We hope the sport has moved on somewhat, helped by the number of cameras at games.
You're welcome to revisit it.
I've not looked through the footage to see if he used it.
Why so defensive?
No you're not, you're making stuff up to suggest Smith is innocent. He admits that he knew about it. He said it was senior members of the team (not just Warner). From that you're making up the idea that Smith thought he'd said enough to stop it from happening. Complete denial. There's no evidence at all that he thought it wouldn't happen.
You don't even know that, they weren't honest about what happened. They said it was yellow tape remember.
That is possible, but there's nothing to suggest that's actually the case, so assuming it is is just defending your leader for the sake of it.
I'm pretty sure we were outraged straight away too, you can't claim the outrage is purely because of Australia.
Sure, but we're allowed to question exactly what it is they're crying about.
I'm not doing that. Given some of the comments from the Aussie camp however, like wanting to make Broad cry, and the unacceptable sledging of Bairstow, it's hardly surprising that some people are. The Aussie cricket culture appears to be pretty ****ing disgusting to me.
Sweeney Todd
New member
If only Murray had tampered with the ball before he took his penalty on Saturday, the ball would have been aimed to Schmeichel’s left, Schmeichel would have guessed correctly, and then watched helplessly as the ball reverse-swung to his right.
That would have given the pundits something to talk about on MOTD.
That would have given the pundits something to talk about on MOTD.
Raleigh Chopper
New member
If the game of Cricket means so much to Aussie players and the Aussie public, then why for years have they cheated, bent the rules until they almost snap, way over the top sledging with the aim to make an opposing player almost cry on the field, not to mention the pre test press conferences.
And then you have the Aussie press, laying into the opposition as soon as the plane touches down and the most childish and ridiculous headlines.
Seems to me they have distain and contempt for the game and must win at all costs.
Why cant they just play the game properly and show the world that they are a really good team and behave like they love the game win, lose or draw.
Most Aussie teams are good enough to win without all the crap they have to dish out anyway.
I have always found the Australian attitude towards sport quite pathetic, its as if there is nothing else to interest them or get excited about down there, oh hang on a minute.
And then you have the Aussie press, laying into the opposition as soon as the plane touches down and the most childish and ridiculous headlines.
Seems to me they have distain and contempt for the game and must win at all costs.
Why cant they just play the game properly and show the world that they are a really good team and behave like they love the game win, lose or draw.
Most Aussie teams are good enough to win without all the crap they have to dish out anyway.
I have always found the Australian attitude towards sport quite pathetic, its as if there is nothing else to interest them or get excited about down there, oh hang on a minute.