[Albion] Are Hughton’s tactics too negative?

BadFish · Feb 1, 2018

I said yes but with the massive caveat that I think that he will keep us up and am quite happy that he knows what he's doing over a season and will keep us up.

Seasider78 · Feb 1, 2018

His tactics are always to maintain tight margins in the game so you are always in the game for at least a point for 90min. This is why when we go a goal ahead we sit back.

However with the quality in this division we are finding that more often than not you are left having to score 2 to turn a draw into a win.

When we go ahead in games I would like to see us push on and punish teams rather than patiently wait hoping they slip up.

We are solid, organised and hard to beat which Hughton has perfected in his time but sometimes you want the handbrake off in games when the opposition are there for the taking

Megazone · Feb 1, 2018

It's a combination of negative tactics and a team lacking any influence in midfield. Last night, we were clueless in possession. No one had the ability to just hold the ball and let the rest of the team get into position for an attack. Our every pass was either back to our defence or lumped back to Southampton's defence. I can't see how Locadia is going to change this boring style of ours when he's fit and ready. He'll probably be used to chase hoofed clearances and close down opposition defenders. He's going to be the one who touches it just 5/6 times a half. Until midfield is sorted out, then what we saw last night will be the story of the season.

Weststander · Feb 1, 2018

Guinness Boy said:
See, that's a much better post than your original one. We may not totally agree but you've made decent points and defended them. I'm with you on the caveat. The wins over Liverpool and Arsenal may be the games that keep Swansea up.

They say don't die wondering - I currently think we will.

Which suggests the answer is better fitness training?

Sorry, I'm being facetious. I know how much we run. Gross covers every blade of grass, the wingers have to track back, Murray's work rate was excellent last night. But it might suggest we spend too much time running in the wrong direction, which goes back to the thread / poll title.

Rewriting history. Did you watch all of the Swansea Liverpool game?

Swansea did a Hughton / Pardew / Benitez / Mourinho, and they sat back deep in their own half with ten men to deny Liverpool space in their rear 18 yards. Carvahal was very open about it. They got their break with the goal from a set piece then sat back for another 50 minutes.

It was in no way an Eddie Howe goal fest of end to end taking it to them.

Swansea gave away possession relentlessly, but didn't care. Hughton tried the same against ManC and others, but our defence isn't up to that standarf versus a top 6 club. Swansea have the PL experience and a PL squad.

djentist · Feb 1, 2018

Seasider78 said:
We are solid, organised and hard to beat which Hughton has perfected in his time

In open play, anyway. Swing a cross into the box or get a corner/free kick and we're like a hot knife through butter

drew · Feb 1, 2018

Kalimantan Gull said:
Hi, fair cop, yes my post was too hyperbolic for this thread. It was a consequence of logging on this morning and seeing numerous threads full of people having a go with nowhere near the nuance that is needed, and then this thread appeared and did my head in. Its turned out to be a well considered thread on the most part. My post would have been better off elsewhere, but hey, at least it got read.

Having said that, 75% of people on this thread think he's too negative? I just don't get that Chris' tactics are too negative. If they were we wouldn't have scored 74 goals last season, a +34 goal difference, so if a tactic can deliver that how can you say its too negative? The tactic works, and with the right players, its way too good for the rest of the division. Its also a tactic that gives players who aren't good enough a fighting chance of staying up.

First of all I don't think you can separate home and away. We do worse away, of course, but the tactics are the same. Indeed I believe this is his great skill as a manager, he gets every member of the squad knowing exactly what is expected of them, in every position, in every game. He doesn't tinker, he doesn't accommodate players who don't fit a role. Certainly he will have different roles playing on different days, but people know what to do with 1 up front, or 2 up front, it works. Its a machine, pretty much. And its a tactic that got us promoted. I'm always drawn to Chris saying, don't get too high after a win, don't get too low after a defeat. Its all part of the same philosophy to keep doing what we do well. NO, its not the most exciting, but its what we do, and we do it well. And it will mean that we almost never are going to have a comfortable result away from home.

I have to say that this season I am PROUD to see us doing what we do well. I know how we will play, and I enjoy seeing us do it well. Sure, the last dozen games have been frustrating, especially Bournemouth, last night, Newcastle, Burnley, although I have to say I haven't been more frustrated this season than the Chelsea game. I'm afraid it was a 4-0 game, because our defence did not play well that day, and they didn't play well because they were not doing everything I talked about in the previous paragraph. And I don't know why. I don't know why Chris changed everything he has been doing for the past three years with us for one game, and its really annoying because I felt we really had a chance that day, and we threw it away with the tactics before a ball had been kicked. I hope he did it out of confidence, and not out of lack of confidence, because if its the latter its the first chink I've seen from him. Glad we're back to the 4 at the back.

Now, the caveat. I do wonder that in this premier league, with so few points being win by the bottom half, with such tight margins between the bottom 8-10, that it is actually better to be more cavalier because if you can catch that lightning in a bottle, grab that 2-0 win away at Liverpool or deliver some other completely unexpected result, then that can probably keep you up on its own. I certainly don't expect nor want CH to do that, it won't work if he changes because its not who he is - but it may be that being less consistent, but grabbing a few fluke results, is a way to stay up. Its no way to get promoted or win a league, but it may be how to stay up.

Ok, You make some good points however I would argue that it is not working. A point away from home is good only if you are winning the winnable home games and that we are not doing by any stretch of the imagination. We've dropped home points against Everton (from a winning position), Southampton, Stoke, Bournemouth, all teams, who at the time we played there were, irrespective of how long they have been in the premiership, struggling. Unlike those teams around us, we have failed to pick up any points against any of the top 6.

It also seems to me that we are restraining the natural talents of some of our players just to fit into the system rather than tinker with the system to make the most of the players.

At the moment, I feel we will only stay up, not because of what we do but because there are 3 teams doing worse. Not sure there are three teams that currently meet that criteria. Last 6 games we are second bottom to Huddersfield.

djentist · Feb 1, 2018

Megazone said:
It's a combination of negative tactics and a team lacking any influence in midfield. Last night, we were clueless in possession. No one had the ability to just hold the ball and let the rest of the team get into position for an attack. Our every pass was either back to our defence or lumped back to Southampton's defence. I can't see how Locadia is going to change this boring style of ours when he's fit and ready. He'll probably be used to chase hoofed clearances and close down opposition defenders. He's going to be the one who touches it just 5/6 times a half. Until midfield is sorted out, then what we saw last night will be the story of the season.

This, Propper and Stephens are such a lightweight combination in a two man pivot who look like they need a deep lying bruiser just behind them or in between them to help dictate and break up play, where both of them (particularly Propper) will have more licence to roam forward and provide some creativity. We were desperately overran but we left it until the dying embers of the game to bring on Kayal, who I think would have made a massive difference were he to have started.

Guinness Boy · Feb 1, 2018

Weststander said:
Rewriting history. Did you watch all of the Swansea Liverpool game?

Swansea did a Hughton / Pardew / Benitez / Mourinho, and they sat back deep in their own half with ten men to deny Liverpool space in their rear 18 yards. Carvahal was very open about it. They got their break with the goal from a set piece then sat back for another 50 minutes.

It was in no way an Eddie Howe goal fest of end to end taking it to them.

Swansea gave away possession relentlessly, but didn't care. Hughton tried the same against ManC and others, but our defence isn't up to that standarf versus a top 6 club. Swansea have the PL experience and a PL squad.

Where did I say they'd won it with attacking football? I just said they'd beaten Liverpool and that might make the difference at the end of the season. But you've already put this on another thread and someone gave the same answer I'm about to - they must have done some attacking or they wouldn't have scored.

Deleted member 2719 · Feb 1, 2018

Pavilionaire said:
I think Hughton's approach to football is a tad too cautious. Stephens and Propper between them have played 50 Prem matches and haven't bagged a single goal between them. Stick them in ANY other Prem side and they would score goals.

Propper was scoring 1 in 4 for PSV, 1 in 5 for Vitesse in the Dutch Eredivisie. Either he hasn't done anything Hughton has asked for 6 months or Hughton has coached the goals out of him.

I agree he coaches goals out of all our creative players apart from the centre forward, then again he has to come back to defend corners.........and that doesn't even work.

March, Knocky, Jose have also all been stifled IMO.

We have an introverted Klopp.

BadFish · Feb 1, 2018

I think the more attacking model of a team of our ability would be Huddersfield. They have had some of those results that we crave against the big clubs. Certainly given out some exciting wins over the season. But when it comes down to the brass tacks of survival we and our negative tactics are doing a little better than them at this stage.

With this in mind i would like to change my vote to no.

BadFish · Feb 1, 2018

Guinness Boy said:
Where did I say they'd won it with attacking football? I just said they'd beaten Liverpool and that might make the difference at the end of the season. But you've already put this on another thread and someone gave the same answer I'm about to - they must have done some attacking or they wouldn't have scored.

To be fair we also do some attacking. We had chances against Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal. I think the point being made is that Swansea play the same game against the big clubs (as do most clubs outside the big 6). Even Man U played it against City this this season. They have better squads than us so can execute the game plan better.

For me it all comes back to the same thing we are just about where we should be this season based on our resources, status, squad and team. Some might even say we are a little above. I voted yes originally because it would be nie to play more attacking football but Hughton is doing what is necessary and at present he is doing a good job of it.

Kalimantan Gull · Feb 1, 2018

drew said:
Ok, You make some good points however I would argue that it is not working. A point away from home is good only if you are winning the winnable home games and that we are not doing by any stretch of the imagination. We've dropped home points against Everton (from a winning position), Southampton, Stoke, Bournemouth, all teams, who at the time we played there were, irrespective of how long they have been in the premiership, struggling. Unlike those teams around us, we have failed to pick up any points against any of the top 6.

It also seems to me that we are restraining the natural talents of some of our players just to fit into the system rather than tinker with the system to make the most of the players.

At the moment, I feel we will only stay up, not because of what we do but because there are 3 teams doing worse. Not sure there are three teams that currently meet that criteria. Last 6 games we are second bottom to Huddersfield.

Only thing with that analysis is, if we'd got those home wins inthe four games you mention, plus the two from last night everyone wanted, plus taken a couple of points off the big 6 - we'd have 36 points, be 7th and pushing for Europe. Come now, not realistic. The points we've got are all decent points in a battle royale down the bottom.

Jim in the West · Feb 1, 2018

BadFish said:
I think the more attacking model of a team of our ability would be Huddersfield. They have had some of those results that we crave against the big clubs. Certainly given out some exciting wins over the season. But when it comes down to the brass tacks of survival we and our negative tactics are doing a little better than them at this stage.

With this in mind i would like to change my vote to no.

But Huddersfield recently have adopted an ultra defensive (aka conservative) style. They are (if anything) more defensive than us at the moment. Last night was often painful - but the opening 15/20 mins was very bright. We took some pot shots which suggested the team had been given slightly different orders. OK, none of them came off - but it was a change. Ultimately last night was all about making sure a relegation rival didn't get 3 points in one of their "winnable" fixtures. Our passing and possession in the second half was almost non-existent, but we still got the result.

Last night reminded me very much of the 14/15 season under Hughton. Cautious, but successful - in that we avoided relegation. There were quite a few matches where we played very poorly, yet Hughton didn't really change anything. Last night there were several players who were almost BEGGING to be taken off (March, especially) - but Hughton kept things the same. Personally I would have brought Kayal on earlier, and got March off....but the idea was clearly to stifle the Southampton wing-backs - and broadly it worked.

Weststander · Feb 1, 2018

BadFish said:
To be fair we also do some attacking. We had chances against Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal. I think the point being made is that Swansea play the same game against the big clubs (as do most clubs outside the big 6). Even Man U played it against City this this season. They have better squads than us so can execute the game plan better.

For me it all comes back to the same thing we are just about where we should be this season based on our resources, status, squad and team. Some might even say we are a little above. I voted yes originally because it would be nie to play more attacking football but Hughton is doing what is necessary and at present he is doing a good job of it.

Knowledgeable points, great post.

The deep block of prioritising not conceding and above all not losing, is even employed by Mourinho's version of ManU when playing against ManC and Liverpool. Pulis, Pardew, Hughton, Benitez, etc, and now Carvalhal all use it against better teams. Established PL clubs have battle hardened and expensive PL squads able to pull it off some times.

trueblue · Feb 1, 2018

Charlies Shinpad said:
We have spent £57 million so they should be Premiership Standard

£57m seems to be the going rate for a PL player these days so doesn’t mean a lot.

Scoffers · Feb 1, 2018

guinness boy said:
it's a shame you've reached for the hyperbole here. It's perfectly valid to criticise certain elements of certain tactics in certain games without wanting to play all out attacking football or to want ch burnt at the stake. I'm still very much a ch in person, i still very much think he is the right manager for us and i still think that, at home, we could be the match of anyone. If you look at the chelsea game, although we lost 4-0 it wasn't a 4-0 game - gary linekar himself said so - and we went plan b with 5 at the back and attacking wingbacks.

It's away from home where he drives me bonkers and he always has. the sitting on a lead that we do invites poor teams back in to games and it's not just in the premier league so the quality of opposition argument doesn't stack up. We let qpr back in to a massive game last season. It was so tense i actually took a photo of my heart rate on my hrm watch because i couldn't believe it. Then we did the same at villa and lost our last chance of the title. Last night we did it again. Southampton were there for the taking and we just sat deep and fed them the ball.

So i've gone for yes. Marginally, he is too negative. Not at home, not in cup games but in league games away from the start and whenever we take the lead.

Fwiw i'm a level one qualified coach and write regularly about football. Doesn't make my opinion any more valid than yours or the next persons but i say it to counter the "know nothing about tactics" hyperbole.

100% this

OzMike · Feb 2, 2018

Yes, straight forward answer to a straight forward question.

drew · Feb 2, 2018

trueblue said:
£57m seems to be the going rate for a PL player these days so doesn’t mean a lot.

Really? That might be the headline figure figure for top players but hardly the PL average!

erkan · Feb 2, 2018

Kalimantan Gull said:
Only thing with that analysis is, if we'd got those home wins inthe four games you mention, plus the two from last night everyone wanted, plus taken a couple of points off the big 6 - we'd have 36 points, be 7th and pushing for Europe. Come now, not realistic. The points we've got are all decent points in a battle royale down the bottom.

I like this analysis but you shouldn't exaggerate.

I don't think the sudden emergence of of a host of Brian Clough / Bob Paisley hybrids on NSC means they think we should be pushing for Europe with this squad.

A more realistic ambition for our first season in the PL is simply to be comfortably out of the relegation battle. Perhaps just above Everton.

If only Houghton could take the shackles off our lads...

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

The Gem · Feb 2, 2018

Triggaaar said:
Are Hughton’s tactics too negative?

To be clear:
You can have negative tactics that work - soak up pressure and score on the break, etc. Too negative means going further than that, and being negative to the extent that it costs us points.

Yes or no?

Cant believe we had a poll for this, everyone knows they are except the man who can make the change.

Norwich, Newcastle, a bit fat TOLD YOU SO.

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