[Albion] The Labour party and anti-Semitism

daveinprague · Mar 27, 2018

Buzzer said:
So it's a right wing plot and the Board of Deputies isn't smart enough to realise that it's the Tories who are the ones stirring up anti-Semitism. Gotcha.

That Jewish Voice for Labour is almost as representative of the wider Jewish sentiment as me and I'm not Jewish.

Support for Labour amongst Jewish voters has completely collapsed. We're talking something like 7% from near 30% when Corbyn became leader. The only ones left are these hard-core, hard-left activists. Oh, and people like Kamel Hawwash, a member of JVL even though he's not Jewish. He is deeply anti-Iseael though.

As far as I'm aware the Board of Deputies don't take political sides in British politics and they legitimately represent the biggest and therefore the most diverse range of Jewish opinion. If they say that Jews are scared then I think I'd rather take their word for it than JVL.

This is serious stuff. A huge number of British Jews have become so fearful that they've taken this unprecedented action. The least we should do is try to put politics to one side and listen and discuss this. Sticking your fingers in your ears and dismissing it as a wider Zionist campaign to smear Corbyn makes you part of the problem.

Its not clever enough to be a plot, but thats what I see happening. I have many, many posts on forums etc from people calling anybody who is anti Jewish state as anti semitic. Thats all. To say that is not seen, repeatedly, would be disingenuous in my book.

mikeyjh · Mar 27, 2018

Buzzer said:
So it's a right wing plot and the Board of Deputies isn't smart enough to realise that it's the Tories who are the ones stirring up anti-Semitism. Gotcha.

That Jewish Voice for Labour is almost as representative of the wider Jewish sentiment as me and I'm not Jewish.

Support for Labour amongst Jewish voters has completely collapsed. We're talking something like 7% from near 30% when Corbyn became leader. The only ones left are these hard-core, hard-left activists. Oh, and people like Kamel Hawwash, a member of JVL even though he's not Jewish. He is deeply anti-Iseael though.

As far as I'm aware the Board of Deputies don't take political sides in British politics and they legitimately represent the biggest and therefore the most diverse range of Jewish opinion. If they say that Jews are scared then I think I'd rather take their word for it than JVL.

This is serious stuff. A huge number of British Jews have become so fearful that they've taken this unprecedented action. The least we should do is try to put politics to one side and listen and discuss this. Sticking your fingers in your ears and dismissing it as a wider Zionist campaign to smear Corbyn makes you part of the problem.

As Medhi Hasan has tweeted, it IS possible that there is an issue with anti-semitism AND that it is being cynically used by Corbyn's opponents.

I'm not sure where you've got your polling from but it we assume there are some 200,000 Jews in Britain of a voting age and that they follow the average 68.8% turnout, and that ALL of them happened to be in Corbyn's constituency, he would still win his seat. It's not the important point about this but it's worth mentioning how irrelevant a stat it is.

Buzzer · Mar 27, 2018

daveinprague said:
Its not clever enough to be a plot, but thats what I see happening. I have many, many posts on forums etc from people calling anybody who is anti Jewish state as anti semitic. Thats all. To say that is not seen, repeatedly, would be disingenuous in my book.

I'm sure that's true. What is also undoubtedly true is that anti-Semitism is on the rise globally.

I said it earlier but the fact that British Jews are so scared about this in their own country is a cause for national embarrassment and shame. I really think you need to put the whataboutery to one side for a moment.

daveinprague · Mar 27, 2018

Buzzer said:
I'm sure that's true. What is also undoubtedly true is that anti-Semitism is on the rise globally.

I said it earlier but the fact that British Jews are so scared about this in their own country is a cause for national embarrassment and shame. I really think you need to put the whataboutery to one side for a moment.

For sure its on the rise. Its not really about whataboutery. I think its part of the same thing. Muddying waters etc.

beorhthelm · Mar 27, 2018

daveinprague said:
Its not clever enough to be a plot, but thats what I see happening. I have many, many posts on forums etc from people calling anybody who is anti Jewish state as anti semitic. Thats all. To say that is not seen, repeatedly, would be disingenuous in my book.

thats true. but whats also disingenuous is people crying about this or that in defense of Corbyn, who made positive comments about a anti-semitic artwork, that has nothing to do with Israeli state.

Buzzer · Mar 27, 2018

mikeyjh said:
As Medhi Hasan has tweeted, it IS possible that there is an issue with anti-semitism AND that it is being cynically used by Corbyn's opponents.

I'm not sure where you've got your polling from but it we assume there are some 200,000 Jews in Britain of a voting age and that they follow the average 68.8% turnout, and that ALL of them happened to be in Corbyn's constituency, he would still win his seat. It's not the important point about this but it's worth mentioning how irrelevant a stat it is.

Almost the entire Jewish voting population now won't vote Labour but its okay because there's so few of them anyway that it's meaningless.

Blimey. That's one way of brushing that to one side. And this from the party of Mannie Shinwell, Miliband and Kaufman.

Buzzer · Mar 27, 2018

daveinprague said:
For sure its on the rise. Its not really about whataboutery. I think its part of the same thing. Muddying waters etc.

There's a simple answer to that. Labour get their house in order and stamp out all this blatant anti-Semitism that has absolutely nothing to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict. They can then sit down with the Zionists lobby to try to thrash things out safe in the knowledge that they've got the moral high ground. Don't go calling people your friend if they're in the habit of saying that Jews drink the blood of Gentiles. Don't keep people in your party if they've got a problem with the universally accepted definition of the word holocaust. Don't let your social media forums become a place where conspiracy theories about Jewish bankers controlling the world are seriously debated and defended. That sort of thing.

That would be a start.

daveinprague · Mar 27, 2018

Buzzer said:
There's a simple answer to that. Labour get their house in order and stamp out all this blatant anti-Semitism that has absolutely nothing to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict. They can then sit down with the Zionists lobby to try to thrash things out safe in the knowledge that they've got the moral high ground. Don't go calling people your friend if they're in the habit of saying that Jews drink the blood of Gentiles. Don't keep people in your party if they've got a problem with the universally accepted definition of the word holocaust. Don't let your social media forums become a place where conspiracy theories about Jewish bankers controlling the world are seriously debated and defended. That sort of thing.

That would be a start.

Well quite. Its noticeable though that a lot of people from the right, who have traditionally, and still are, anti Jewish, tend to be the ones throwing the anti semetic stuff around on forums. About anti jew rhetoric seemingly growing across the world, I think its always been there. People just feel they can say it out loud nowadays.

Buzzer · Mar 27, 2018

daveinprague said:
Well quite. Its noticeable though that a lot of people from the right, who have traditionally, and still are, anti Jewish, tend to be the ones throwing the anti semetic stuff around on forums. About anti jew rhetoric seemingly growing across the world, I think its always been there. People just feel they can say it out loud nowadays.

Ah. My concerns aren't real. I'm just shit-stirring because I'm moderately right-wing and anti-Semitism is historically a far-right thing.

I think we're done here Dave.

daveinprague · Mar 27, 2018

Buzzer said:
Ah. My concerns aren't real. I'm just shit-stirring because I'm moderately right-wing and anti-Semitism is historically a far-right thing.

I think we're done here Dave.

Ive agreed with what you have said, and I wasnt meaning you regarding rightwingers. I meant the more virulent on forums. It is historically, and still is, a rightwing thing. As seen in the UK, and very recently in the USA.

Buzzer · Mar 27, 2018

daveinprague said:
Ive agreed with what you have said, and I wasnt meaning you regarding rightwingers. I meant the more virulent on forums. It is historically, and still is, a rightwing thing. As seen in the UK, and very recently in the USA.

Apologies. I misunderstood it.

If, after all this, you still think anti-Semitism is the preserve of the far-right then I worry about what it would take to persuade you otherwise.

daveinprague · Mar 27, 2018

Buzzer said:
Apologies. I misunderstood it.

If, after all this, you still think anti-Semitism is the preserve of the far-right then I worry about what it would take to persuade you otherwise.

I dont think its the preserve of, but it is a very unhealthy majority, including armed groups in eastern European countries etc..

Buzzer · Mar 27, 2018

daveinprague said:
I dont think its the preserve of, but it is a very unhealthy majority, including armed groups in eastern European countries etc..

I think this is why it puts us into dangerous and uncharted territory.

With the far-right, you get what you see. They're not well known for their intellectual rigour and their reasons for hating Jews comes down to the fact that Hitler hated them. The arguments have been completely debunked so although there will always be people who feel drawn to them, there's a hundred other people who don't want anything they have to offer. Eastern Europe notwithstanding, it's manageable, they're not a credible threat and some of them even come with tattoos that make them even easier to spot.

Corbyn has struck a big chord with a lot of young people who have become politically active. So when Ken Livingstone pops up with the comment that Jews are usually rich and Hitler was a Zionist, it's not so easy to spot the anti-Semitism. If Nick Griffin had said that we'd not even be giving it any second thought at all. Its clearly anti-Semitic. But this is Ken...he's a mate of Corbyn. They've been politically close for decades. He's a fellow left-winger, he's a bit of an oddball but he's fought racism his whole adult life. When he equates Zionism to Nazism and when he uses the words Israel and Jews interchangeably it has an effect. Its why Ken does it.

It's not just Ken, there's been a sizeable number of anti-Semites who feel secure enough to start peddling anti-Jewish tropes and conspiracies. I reckon there's more 18-25 year olds who have heard of The Protocols of The Elders of Zion than 26-35 year olds because its being peddled around in a way that hasn't been seen in decades.

Jusy my opinion but i think this explains a lot of the rise in anti-Semitism and why it's becoming normalised in mainstream politics. You've got people who occupy the part of politics normally associated with fighting social injustice spreading anti-Semitism and it's more difficult trying to persuade people that anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism when it comes from there.

Ernest · Mar 27, 2018

As a Tory councillor helpfully explains, this was never about Anti Semitism in the Labour Party it was just another excuse to smear the Labour Party and leader ahead of the council elections

[tweet]978641418192289795[/tweet]

Ernest · Mar 27, 2018

It's a shame that people didn't see through this especially after the Russian spy rubbish

[tweet]978640639943434241[/tweet]

Titanic · Mar 27, 2018

mikeyjh · Mar 27, 2018

Ernest said:
It's a shame that people didn't see through this especially after the Russian spy rubbish

[tweet]978640639943434241[/tweet]

The thing is, what we KNOW is - The Tories are hopeless with social media, we can be quite confident that Labour will come through this stronger, yet again. If they think that the core Labour support is going to be swayed by smears about apparent anti-semitism, that's up to them but they're very wrong.

Buzzer · Mar 27, 2018

Why use the word 'apparent'? Corbyn has said that the problem is real.

Fortunately, Corbyn appears to be as useless on social media as the average Tory Luddite so he will probably give the problem a bit more thought than just seeing who can shout loudest on Twitter.

JC Footy Genius · Mar 27, 2018

mikeyjh said:
The thing is, what we KNOW is - The Tories are hopeless with social media, we can be quite confident that Labour will come through this stronger, yet again. If they think that the core Labour support is going to be swayed by smears about apparent anti-semitism, that's up to them but they're very wrong.

Sadly I agree that the 'core' Labour (you/Ernie plus a few others on NSC) corbynistas will pay no attention to the upsurge of antisemitism in the Labour party which is why it will continue and probably get worse . The fact you seem to view this as a virtue/positive is rather sad.

Ernest · Mar 27, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
Sadly I agree that the 'core' Labour (you/Ernie plus a few others on NSC) corbynistas will pay no attention to the upsurge of antisemitism in the Labour party which is why it will continue and probably get worse . The fact you seem to view this as a virtue/positive is rather sad.

Would you care to point out any instances of anti semitism that have occurred in the last 3 months that have caused this explosion of outrage

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