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[Palace] Unwelcome Palace Fans



Buzzer

Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
Thunder Bolt said:
It's hard to tell without seeing the wording on the letter. I suppose football clubs have the right to ban anyone, in the same way a pub or restaurant would ban someone from their premises.
I am assuming the letter came from Palace, and not the court?
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I agree it's hard to tell but it's pretty clear that if it's not from the court then it's not a banning order covered by the act you quoted. Of course, the club are entitled to ban anyone they choose with a lot less burden of proof than a court ban but the club can't arrest anyone, only the police so they have to be acting on police advice with the implied threat. Surely?
 
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tiberious

tiberious

New member
Nov 3, 2009
840
The earth
maffew said:
Nicked for what?
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on suspicion of committing a public order offence. Suspicion is very low threshold. Im not saying they would and having seen the post that explains their tickets have been cancelled and advised not to attend then that answers the matter. Arrest is not the same threshold as charge. My older brother used to fall foul of this when we went away years ago,
 


C

Crispy Ambulance

Well-known member
May 27, 2010
2,414
Burgess Hill
Hastings gull said:
I do, as it has been well documented. I am questioning your logic, which you have not understood. You said that the Place fans were generally well behaved ( I like the word "generally" ) until they met the Brighton mob. Given that the Palace mob was late arriving, that must mean that the Brighton fans had ignored the start of the match, according to what you state. This seems rather unlikely.
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Brighton mob still outside the NW 5 minutes before ko.
 


H

Hastings gull

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2013
4,635
Buzzer said:
You wrote this:



And I'll repeat... because it's the biggest game of the year for them and they wanted to make a day of it. I've done it before at Palace games, I've done it before at Orient, Millwall, Southampton and West Ham games. Christ, I've done it at so many grounds on weekday away games I've lost count.
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Yet again, your behaviour as a professional gent, and I know you are, would not need policing nearly to the same extent. This is my point. Each situation would be dealt with on its merits. My son in law was clearly of the opinion that on this occasion, a heavy police presence was needed to preserve public order. He was there -you were not. I don't doubt what you are saying, and when I was younger, I too did as you describe, but I was all too aware that when matters started to get out of hand, it was time to slip away.
 






M

maffew

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2003
8,871
Worcester England
tiberious said:
on suspicion of committing a public order offence. Suspicion is very low threshold. Im not saying they would and having seen the post that explains their tickets have been cancelled and advised not to attend then that answers the matter. Arrest is not the same threshold as charge. My older brother used to fall foul of this when we went away years ago,
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Ah ok. Let me clarify I should have been clearer TBH

It does sound quite likely that one one at least of the two committed what could be classed as a public order/section 5 offence. But suspicion is not a charge an they hanet been (yet) arrested to my knowledge so are CPFC saying Sussex Police are after you for a potential offence but despite our previous statements, Surrey police havent done anything about you despie us having evidence?

I dunno it sounds cooked
 


tiberious

tiberious

New member
Nov 3, 2009
840
The earth
maffew said:
Ah ok. Let me clarify I should have been clearer TBH

It does sound quite likely that one one at least of the two committed what could be classed as a public order/section 5 offence. But suspicion is not a charge an they hanet been (yet) arrested to my knowledge so are CPFC saying Sussex Police are after you for a potential offence but despite our previous statements, Surrey police havent done anything about you despie us having evidence?

I dunno it sounds cooked
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As I said I would not expect any club to warn the potential suspects but if you read that is is not them being told they will be arrested but CPFC advising their tickets have been cancelled , I do not know the reason, and the advice not to go to brighton. I did not say they were charged just they could be arrested IF and its a big IF they had committed offences. Also section 34 of the Crime and Policing act 2014 gives a power to grant a dispersal order in an area where disorder or ASB could occur. So in theory if one was granted you could refuse access to the city to anybody and if they refused to disperse they could be arrested. But that is a different argument.
Also Surrey would not arrest without a request from Sussex.
Anyway lets all enjoy the match and watch CPFC go home with no further interest in the cup.
 


Se20

Se20

Banned
Oct 3, 2012
3,981
Hastings gull said:
Before KO -20 minutes after?
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I can imagine the scene,
" They'll be here soon "
"Let em have it !!"
" Bloody pikies , let's do em"
" what's that ? It's GOSBTS !! Let's go in "
 
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Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,439
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
Buzzer said:
I agree it's hard to tell but it's pretty clear that if it's not from the court then it's not a banning order covered by the act you quoted. Of course, the club are entitled to ban anyone they choose with a lot less burden of proof than a court ban but the club can't arrest anyone, only the police so they have to be acting on police advice with the implied threat. Surely?
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Yes, that's true.
 




Dougie

Dougie

Well-known member
Jan 11, 2012
5,700
Hastings gull said:
I do, as it has been well documented. I am questioning your logic, which you have not understood. You said that the Place fans were generally well behaved ( I like the word "generally" ) until they met the Brighton mob. Given that the Palace mob was late arriving, that must mean that the Brighton fans had ignored the start of the match, according to what you state. This seems rather unlikely.
Click to expand...
I never said any of that but I’ll reply anyway . So you reckon every palace fan in that group were rowdy do you ? I know a few who got caught in it and they are decent fans who were in the wrong place at the wrong time . The main group were fanatics who were rounded up but a lot of normal fans were herded in the same way so for them it was unfortunate. This group arrived late due to the detour and met a group of brighton fans who were intent on confrontation so were a fair few of the palace Tbf the police intervened and kept both groups apart . The palace group were corralled by the away entrace till the game kicked off and when a door was opened ( not smashed in ) a few saw a opportunity to get in to see the game rightly or wrongly . I think you have been told a version by your son in law who has heavily stacked it in the polices favour , who in the light of the allegations they threw at palace fans , I’d take with a large pinch of salt .
 




W

Wardy's twin

Well-known member
Oct 21, 2014
8,434
el punal said:
I'm a football fan and I haven't been discriminated against by the police. Is there a manual or set of instructions that I can read to help change that situation. Thanks awfully.
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I think there is a commonly held view that the establishment looks down on football fans as a class rather than the few individuals who cause trouble. A good example of this is not being able to have an alcoholic drink in hand when watching football at a ground BUT Rugby fans were allowed to drink & watch their game at the same venue. Similarly football fans can be kettled and taht would not happen at other sporting events.
 


K

Kitcatt

Member
Apr 7, 2017
79
Buzzer said:
So many questions from this.

Isn't this a police rather than club affair? On what grounds and under which law is this being used? Where's the right of appeal? Is this even legal? Why were they allowed to buy tickets in the first place? Why is the answer to any problem with football fans always ever more draconian measures?

I'm not doubting Merry Prankster's story at all. I believe it 100% because I know him personally and he's very much a man of his word. I think he may also have introduced me to one of the Palace fans that have received this diktat. I've also got old school Palace mates who are long-time season ticket holders and we're all of the same opinion about how the police are trying to ruin the Palace-Brighton rivalry.
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Really? The one and only reason there was trouble was because of the ticketless Ultras. It seems, after reading numerous accounts/opinions, that even Palace fans think they’re nobs. Yes, the police stirred it up but it was the Ultras who caused this mess. What I don’t get, is that the 2nd leg of the play-offs was a far bigger match but there wasn’t any of the bollocks that happened this time. (Apart from the ridiculous, go clockwise at the end of the match). Anyway, fingers crossed it was a one off and after this game we will be about talking about the football
 


Buzzer

Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
el punal said:
I'm a football fan and I haven't been discriminated against by the police. Is there a manual or set of instructions that I can read to help change that situation. Thanks awfully.
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Yes you have. Every time you attend a match you are subject to restrictions on your civil liberties that no other sport or entertainment are subjected to. The punishments you face if you do cause trouble are much, much heavier for football fans than if they had occurred elsewhere. The ability even to buy a ticket and the conditions that go with it are subject to police powers that don't exist anywhere else.

A Brighton fan was very recently given a banning order and one of the stated reasons was his association with other troublemakers. Guilt by association. Does this not worry the hell out of you and also give a good indication of the unique approach the police take when dealing with us against how they deal with any other section of society? It is extremely discriminatory, we are policed on the basis of all of us being potential hooligans.
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
49,927
Faversham
Buzzer said:
Yes you have. Every time you attend a match you are subject to restrictions on your civil liberties that no other sport or entertainment are subjected to. The punishments you face if you do cause trouble are much, much heavier for football fans than if they had occurred elsewhere. The ability even to buy a ticket and the conditions that go with it are subject to police powers that don't exist anywhere else.

A Brighton fan was very recently given a banning order and one of the stated reasons was his association with other troublemakers. Guilt by association. Does this not worry the hell out of you and also give a good indication of the unique approach the police take when dealing with us against how they deal with any other section of society? It is extremely discriminatory, we are policed on the basis of all of us being potential hooligans.
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Forgive me, but the irony here is tumescent.

1. The present mindset against football was invented by Thatcher and her pal, the Luton MP David Evans. We are all scum. Did you not know that?

2. Substitute poll tax march for football match and there you'll find a lefty being kettled having committed no offence. Different scum. But the outcome is the same.....

3. It serves the interest of the government. To be electable a government needs to be seen to be in control or the thickies will vote for the other lot (which is why Corbyn has a chance - FFS). To be seen to be in control you need to find a scapegoat and give it a regular public kicking. Football supporters have been volunteering for this on a regular basis since the late 1960s, or even earlier if my dad's tales of Millwall in the 30s are correct. So today only the tiniest bit of cuntishness by a few 'ultras' is enough for the system to get out its tar brush. Unfortunately we reap what we sowed in the 70s and 80s.

4. No matter how irksome, I see this as better than the early 70s, when we (football fans) were seen as so unimportant we were basically left to run riot and, as long as we kept our thuggery and crass vulgarity out of the faces of the middle class the OB would stand idly by. Meanwhile people were actually killed.

We reap what we sow. Even if it isn't 'we' but our geriatric predecessors, who are ironically now grumping about ticket prices and the gentrification of football :facepalm:
 




Buzzer

Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Forgive me, but the irony here is tumescent.

1. The present mindset against football was invented by Thatcher and her pal, the Luton MP David Evans. We are all scum. Did you not know that?
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Aware of him?

Buzzer said:
If you truly believe that is the solution then a part of me has died inside. David Evans - ex-Luton chairman and borderline fascist argued this in the 1980s as the way forward. He was wrong then and you're wrong now - it would kill football. I mean that. I think I'd give up going if away fans were banned.
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Buzzer said:
I met a fair few horrors of all political persuasions. The very worst has to be David Evans ex Luton owner, Tory MP - a man that I took an instant dislike to and when I finally got to know him merely confirmed my feelings when I heard his views on Clause 28. It was crypto-fascists like him that made me leave the Tory party.
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Buzzer said:
Really? There are some Tories that I, as a Tory, dislike. Top of the list are the "hang 'em, flog 'em, single mums are scrounging slags" type. The late David Evans MP sort of Tory.
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Yeah. I'm aware of what he and Thatcher did to football.
 






Questions

Questions

Habitual User
Oct 18, 2006
24,874
Worthing
Buzzer said:
Yes you have. Every time you attend a match you are subject to restrictions on your civil liberties that no other sport or entertainment are subjected to. The punishments you face if you do cause trouble are much, much heavier for football fans than if they had occurred elsewhere. The ability even to buy a ticket and the conditions that go with it are subject to police powers that don't exist anywhere else.

A Brighton fan was very recently given a banning order and one of the stated reasons was his association with other troublemakers. Guilt by association. Does this not worry the hell out of you and also give a good indication of the unique approach the police take when dealing with us against how they deal with any other section of society? It is extremely discriminatory, we are policed on the basis of all of us being potential hooligans.
Click to expand...

I’m not in favour of infringement of civil liberties but when football fans get treated like middle class oils who can share a pint together in a stadium without the tribalism and all that goes with then I’m off.
 


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