[Politics] Rhian Brewster

surlyseagull · Dec 29, 2017

The Spanish who are supposedly years ahead of us in footballing terms are apparently light years behind the UK regarding racism.

GT49er · Dec 29, 2017

Kazenga <3 said:
This misses the point I think, people should not be praised for not being racist, that is not an achievement.

That sounds pretty arrogant. Before you say people should not be praised for not being racist, you should perhaps consider the journey that older generations have trod on the road to becoming not racist. A generation that spent it's early years learning about natives who lived in the jungle and sometimes were cannibals, who were then later taught in schools not to call people black but to use the term 'coloured people', to get to college at a time when the Black Power people were shouting, 'Don't you go calling me coloured, I'm black!' - then into a work place where those staunchest of Labour supporters, the trade unions, often made it their business to let management know in no uncertain terms that if any black man ever appeared on the production line, an all-out strike would instantly ensue. Confused? Yes, we were probably entitled to be!
Same as homosexuality. Many of us were brought up when being homosexual wasn't just a bit queer, it was downright illegal!
Maybe some of the younger moralists around should stop a while and give a little bit of credit to those of us in the older generations who have had to completely change views that were commonplace and normal when we were younger. Happy to be anti-racist and anti-homophobic - I personally never hated different races or homosexuals myself, but for some it has been a hell of a journey!

Commander · Dec 29, 2017

GT49er said:
That sounds pretty arrogant. Before you say people should not be praised for not being racist, you should perhaps consider the journey that older generations have trod on the road to becoming not racist. A generation that spent it's early years learning about natives who lived in the jungle and sometimes were cannibals, who were then later taught in schools not to call people black but to use the term 'coloured people', to get to college at a time when the Black Power people were shouting, 'Don't you go calling me coloured, I'm black!' - then into a work place where those staunchest of Labour supporters, the trade unions, often made it their business to let management know in no uncertain terms that if any black man ever appeared on the production line, an all-out strike would instantly ensue. Confused? Yes, we were probably entitled to be!
Same as homosexuality. Many of us were brought up when being homosexual wasn't just a bit queer, it was downright illegal!
Maybe some of the younger moralists around should stop a while and give a little bit of credit to those of us in the older generations who have had to completely change views that were commonplace and normal when we were younger. Happy to be anti-racist and anti-homophobic - I personally never hated different races or homosexuals myself, but for some it has been a hell of a journey!

Great post.

Garage_Doors · Dec 29, 2017

GT49er said:
That sounds pretty arrogant. Before you say people should not be praised for not being racist, you should perhaps consider the journey that older generations have trod on the road to becoming not racist. A generation that spent it's early years learning about natives who lived in the jungle and sometimes were cannibals, who were then later taught in schools not to call people black but to use the term 'coloured people', to get to college at a time when the Black Power people were shouting, 'Don't you go calling me coloured, I'm black!' - then into a work place where those staunchest of Labour supporters, the trade unions, often made it their business to let management know in no uncertain terms that if any black man ever appeared on the production line, an all-out strike would instantly ensue. Confused? Yes, we were probably entitled to be!
Same as homosexuality. Many of us were brought up when being homosexual wasn't just a bit queer, it was downright illegal!
Maybe some of the younger moralists around should stop a while and give a little bit of credit to those of us in the older generations who have had to completely change views that were commonplace and normal when we were younger. Happy to be anti-racist and anti-homophobic - I personally never hated different races or homosexuals myself, but for some it has been a hell of a journey!

Can relate to all of that, began to feel it was just me that went though all that. Very well put.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Dec 29, 2017

GT49er said:
That sounds pretty arrogant. Before you say people should not be praised for not being racist, you should perhaps consider the journey that older generations have trod on the road to becoming not racist. A generation that spent it's early years learning about natives who lived in the jungle and sometimes were cannibals, who were then later taught in schools not to call people black but to use the term 'coloured people', to get to college at a time when the Black Power people were shouting, 'Don't you go calling me coloured, I'm black!' - then into a work place where those staunchest of Labour supporters, the trade unions, often made it their business to let management know in no uncertain terms that if any black man ever appeared on the production line, an all-out strike would instantly ensue. Confused? Yes, we were probably entitled to be!
Same as homosexuality. Many of us were brought up when being homosexual wasn't just a bit queer, it was downright illegal!
Maybe some of the younger moralists around should stop a while and give a little bit of credit to those of us in the older generations who have had to completely change views that were commonplace and normal when we were younger. Happy to be anti-racist and anti-homophobic - I personally never hated different races or homosexuals myself, but for some it has been a hell of a journey!

Good post.

But you have to admit, things are much better now in so many ways. Sometimes more than us old timers can assimilate.

Well, I'm speaking mainly for you, here. :hilton:

daveinprague · Dec 29, 2017

GT49er said:
That sounds pretty arrogant. Before you say people should not be praised for not being racist, you should perhaps consider the journey that older generations have trod on the road to becoming not racist. A generation that spent it's early years learning about natives who lived in the jungle and sometimes were cannibals, who were then later taught in schools not to call people black but to use the term 'coloured people', to get to college at a time when the Black Power people were shouting, 'Don't you go calling me coloured, I'm black!' - then into a work place where those staunchest of Labour supporters, the trade unions, often made it their business to let management know in no uncertain terms that if any black man ever appeared on the production line, an all-out strike would instantly ensue. Confused? Yes, we were probably entitled to be!
Same as homosexuality. Many of us were brought up when being homosexual wasn't just a bit queer, it was downright illegal!
Maybe some of the younger moralists around should stop a while and give a little bit of credit to those of us in the older generations who have had to completely change views that were commonplace and normal when we were younger. Happy to be anti-racist and anti-homophobic - I personally never hated different races or homosexuals myself, but for some it has been a hell of a journey!

I'm 62. I didn't find the journey that difficult tbh but., life is constant change and can be tricky to decipher. I don't think many people suffered much because of it. I do understand though. Life's a constant challenge but we deal with it.

Thunder Bolt · Dec 30, 2017

daveinprague said:
I'm 62. I didn't find the journey that difficult tbh but., life is constant change and can be tricky to decipher. I don't think many people suffered much because of it. I do understand though. Life's a constant challenge but we deal with it.

I think many people suffered because of it. That's why there had to be legislation. People have been killed because of their skin colour or sexual orientation.

Yes, we've had to learn what the right words were, which were inoffensive, just as we can't use the term spastic or crippled any longer, but that isn't really a hardship. Certainly not in comparison with what others who were victims of the abuse went through.

Kazenga <3 · Dec 30, 2017

GT49er said:
That sounds pretty arrogant. Before you say people should not be praised for not being racist, you should perhaps consider the journey that older generations have trod on the road to becoming not racist. A generation that spent it's early years learning about natives who lived in the jungle and sometimes were cannibals, who were then later taught in schools not to call people black but to use the term 'coloured people', to get to college at a time when the Black Power people were shouting, 'Don't you go calling me coloured, I'm black!' - then into a work place where those staunchest of Labour supporters, the trade unions, often made it their business to let management know in no uncertain terms that if any black man ever appeared on the production line, an all-out strike would instantly ensue. Confused? Yes, we were probably entitled to be!
Same as homosexuality. Many of us were brought up when being homosexual wasn't just a bit queer, it was downright illegal!
Maybe some of the younger moralists around should stop a while and give a little bit of credit to those of us in the older generations who have had to completely change views that were commonplace and normal when we were younger. Happy to be anti-racist and anti-homophobic - I personally never hated different races or homosexuals myself, but for some it has been a hell of a journey!

Older generations may well have had more of an excuse for these views given they were ingrained in society, and ultimately we are all a product of our upbringing. Of course those who helped shift such rhetoric should rightly be commended, there is no doubt about that.

Context is obviously very important though, with modern education as it is there no need for praise to be given for not being racist, just as much as we don't feel the need to celebrate people managing to walk down the street without stabbing anyone (Croydon aside). And I don't think this is an arrogant view it's just symptomatic of progress- the whole point is for these attitudes to be normalised. That's not to misunderstand that we shouldn't be rightly proud of having a multicultural society, more that managing not to be racist should really be the bare minimum these days rather than a standard to aspire to.

daveinprague · Dec 30, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
I think many people suffered because of it. That's why there had to be legislation. People have been killed because of their skin colour or sexual orientation.

Yes, we've had to learn what the right words were, which were inoffensive, just as we can't use the term spastic or crippled any longer, but that isn't really a hardship. Certainly not in comparison with what others who were victims of the abuse went through.

Of course I agree. Our sound system was black and white. One thing I tend to remember is, that ive never been stopped by the police for no apparent reason when ive been with white people.There is still institutional racism. The point I was making was, that there really isnt any hardship not being racist, homophobic etc. It should be a normal attitude.

GT49er · Dec 30, 2017

Kazenga <3 said:
Older generations may well have had more of an excuse for these views given they were ingrained in society, and ultimately we are all a product of our upbringing. .

It wasn't an excuse - I don't need one. Yes, it was the way things were. We don't need to be patronised by being excused for being there, thank you very much.

Kazenga <3 said:
Context is obviously very important though, with modern education as it is there no need for praise to be given for not being racist,

I'm guessing that you're younger than a lot of us. Didn't you understand what I posted about the education that people older than you had? No, it wasn't modern education as you know it. Adjusting to a completely different set of values and mores to those you learned as a child/young person is no cakewalk - as you may well find out in the next 40 or 50 years (and no, I don't know in what ways that will be).

GT49er · Dec 30, 2017

daveinprague said:
I'm 62. I didn't find the journey that difficult tbh but., life is constant change and can be tricky to decipher. I don't think many people suffered much because of it. I do understand though. Life's a constant challenge but we deal with it.

Yes, I'm a few (but not many) years older than you, and I haven't found it too difficult - some bits trickier than others, but that I think would be the same for everyone. And yes, I'll admit that some of our/my generation haven't made he journey. Niggles me somewhat when some young zealots assume that's all of us.

daveinprague said:
Of course I agree. Our sound system was black and white. One thing I tend to remember is, that ive never been stopped by the police for no apparent reason when ive been with white people.

Just an observation: I remember being stopped by the police for no reason quite frequently in Worthing in the early 70s.....and I'm white!

Brovion · Dec 30, 2017

daveinprague said:
Without the threat of the law, fines, and banning orders, do you believe it would have stopped in England?

Yes, absolutely. I refer you to GT49's post (#22). Laws against discrimination were passed, and the vast majority of people accepted them as social progress. British attitudes changed organically, we didn't need an officer class elite to smash us into line with threats and sticks.

Kazenga <3 · Dec 30, 2017

GT49er said:
It wasn't an excuse - I don't need one. Yes, it was the way things were. We don't need to be patronised by being excused for being there, thank you very much.

Its not about excusing people for being there. The point I was making was that such views cannot be excused now because there are not the same societal pressures to conform to that way of thinking, whereas in times gone by there was clearly a justification of sorts for them.

GT49er said:
I'm guessing that you're younger than a lot of us. Didn't you understand what I posted about the education that people older than you had? No, it wasn't modern education as you know it. Adjusting to a completely different set of values and mores to those you learned as a child/young person is no cakewalk - as you may well find out in the next 40 or 50 years (and no, I don't know in what ways that will be).

You've completely ignored the first few words of that quote- context is important. Whilst not being racist in times gone by (for all the many and varied reasons you listed, societal pressures as they were etc) was clearly more of a struggle, in the modern context which is where the issue in question is situated, managing not to be racist is not an achievement it is just a basic standard of decency. I don't see how that can possibly be argued against and I don't think those who were racist because it used to be acceptable but now aren't deserve any special praise. I think Brovion was right in that acknowledgment of progress is enough, after that move on.

As for adjusting in future, there may well be practices now that are looked back upon as barbaric, but I somehow doubt it'll be anything on the scale of racism- I can't think of any accepted views inherent in society at the moment that are essentially based on hate.

seagully · Dec 30, 2017

Buzzer said:
I think an answer to both points is that whenever and wherever Brewster is racially abused, that all his team-mates, white and black, respond and refuse to take part until the problem is addressed. It's not just an issue that black footballers should make a stand on. The lad is English and if he and other black players see that English football as a whole is completely behind him then it is a huge way of showing support. The publicity of an entire national team taking a stand might encourage other national teams like France, Belgium, Holland to do the same.

It also shows that white working-class English lads are as much in the fight to kick out racism as their black team-mates.

Amen to that- perfectly put. Would love English football/footballers to be the pioneers in something like this.

warmleyseagull · Dec 30, 2017

Things are different in parts of Eastern Europe. My son teaches English in Poland and has been abused by skinheads despite his white skin; seems like anyone ‘foreign’ is an easy target.

There is a telling clip from Minder (late 1970s) when George Cole warns that there are ‘Spades’ in a house that he and Waterman are about to raid. For those of us old enough to remember, that was fine to put on mainstream TV 40 years ago. We have moved on a long way since then, but other societies less so.

It doesn’t make racial abuse right but perhaps we need to prepare our younger players that not all their opponents have been brought up in the same anti racist way; that some other countries are less eclectic than ours. Very pleased that Brewster has spoken out, but we have to face the fact that racism is out there in some very predominantly white societies - my guess is that we shall see it next summer.

knocky1 · Dec 30, 2017

warmleyseagull said:
Things are different in parts of Eastern Europe. My son teaches English in Poland and has been abused by skinheads despite his white skin; seems like anyone ‘foreign’ is an easy target.

There is a telling clip from Minder (late 1970s) when George Cole warns that there are ‘Spades’ in a house that he and Waterman are about to raid. For those of us old enough to remember, that was fine to put on mainstream TV 40 years ago. We have moved on a long way since then, but other societies less so.

It doesn’t make racial abuse right but perhaps we need to prepare our younger players that not all their opponents have been brought up in the same anti racist way; that some other countries are less eclectic than ours. Very pleased that Brewster has spoken out, but we have to face the fact that racism is out there in some very predominantly white societies - my guess is that we shall see it next summer.

Accept or boycott? I won't accept. The far right in Poland are unacceptable. Russia is even worse. Throw in FIFA and money.

Poland, at present, makes Brexit a left wing preference.

warmleyseagull · Dec 30, 2017

knocky1 said:
Accept or boycott? I won't accept. The far right in Poland are unacceptable. Russia is even worse. Throw in FIFA and money.

Poland, at present, makes Brexit a left wing preference.

The problem with boycotting is being seen as taking the moral high ground, somehow making out that one has 'better' morals. This is likely to antagonise and therefore be counter-productive.

Imagine, for example, Russia v England friendly in March (just suppose) when Raheem Sterling is abused out of ref's hearing (even if he is stood there, what ref is going to report it?). England take what is an honest and morally 'correct' view that no action taken = withdrawal from World Cup. Do we imagine for a moment that any of the other 30 countries would follow suit? Would it actually change Russian attitudes? My guess is that the converse would be true; England would be seen to be pompous and arrogant. It ain't right, but sometimes you have to play the politics.

Buzzer · Dec 30, 2017

warmleyseagull said:
The problem with boycotting is being seen as taking the moral high ground, somehow making out that one has 'better' morals. This is likely to antagonise and therefore be counter-productive.

I disagree. There's a very long and noble history of boycotting as a very effective means of showing disapproval. And in this instance, I think every English football fan would be behind any team that took that stance because, quite frankly, it IS better morals.

I really don't care that racists get antagonised, I'm more interested in making sure that black English lads know that the whole country is behind them.

warmleyseagull · Dec 30, 2017

Buzzer said:
I disagree. There's a very long and noble history of boycotting as a very effective means of showing disapproval. And in this instance, I think every English football fan would be behind any team that took that stance because, quite frankly, it IS better morals.

I really don't care that racists get antagonised, I'm more interested in making sure that black English lads know that the whole country is behind them.

Problem is that it is not the racists who are antagonised; it is the rest whose sympathies thereby tend towards the racists. Put it like this: if you are a racist, and an incident occurs where your home country is humiliated by a country over a racist incident with whom you and your fellow countrymen have little affinity, are you not delighted? Even better if the facts cant be proved.

There are ways of supporting our players that use the proper channels. Agree that FIFA is useless, but it is the only choice. Understand your sentiment entirely, but regrettably the real politik determines that a boycott would win support here but doubtless make sweet FA difference where it needs to.

knocky1 · Dec 30, 2017

warmleyseagull said:
The problem with boycotting is being seen as taking the moral high ground, somehow making out that one has 'better' morals. This is likely to antagonise and therefore be counter-productive.

Imagine, for example, Russia v England friendly in March (just suppose) when Raheem Sterling is abused out of ref's hearing (even if he is stood there, what ref is going to report it?). England take what is an honest and morally 'correct' view that no action taken = withdrawal from World Cup. Do we imagine for a moment that any of the other 30 countries would follow suit? Would it actually change Russian attitudes? My guess is that the converse would be true; England would be seen to be pompous and arrogant. It ain't right, but sometimes you have to play the politics.

To me playing the politics is not accepting racism. FIFA are pompous, arrogant and corrupt. The FA follow suit.

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