[Film] Post Film Discussion Star Wars TLJ WARNING don’t view will contain spoilers

midnight_rendezvous · Dec 28, 2017

Rohan Ince's Python said:
So that's, er, one scene. You could make the case of any of the current mob learning from their adventures.

But what you forget is there is a 3rd film to piece everything together. Bonkers that people would go "oh, we didn't get the answers we want so it's shit". Total toys out the pram, spit the dummy if we don't know after the next one but not 2/3s through.

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That is one example that disproves your point. I could also talk about the obvious development of Han and Leia if you’d like? Even Lando has more character development than Rey in the half an hour he’s in Empire.

midnight_rendezvous · Dec 28, 2017

Acker79 said:
Rohan didn't say there was no character development, they said "what character development is there in Empire Strikes Back that is any more than what's in TFA?" the character development you describe in Luke isn't that different to Poe Dameran's development. His overconfidence led to the decimation of the rebellion. From a fleet of people, down to enough to fit on the Falcon, and he learned by the end of the film to not rush in, that not everything is about getting in his cockpit and blowing stuff up. He grows into a proper leader by the end of the film.

Rey went to Kylo Ren to save him. How did that work out for her? She failed. Instead, her presence resulted in him being set free from Snoke and established him as a the new supreme leader who went on to attack the rebellion leading to the death of Luke Skywalker (who got involved as a result of Rey coming into his life in a naive belief he would solve everything). To say she isn't allowed to, or that she didn't fail is to completely ignore what actually happened in the film.

Her going resulted in the death of the Snoke, the most powerful force user of the galaxy. As we know she can already kick Kylo’s ass he’s not exactly that much of a threat. When Luke was overconfident in Empire and Anakin in Attack if The Clones, they were both easily defeated and left scarred by their experiences. Rey isn’t. Her only failure is that Kylo didn’t turn yet she still managed to ensure that the biggest threat (Snoke) was killed even if not by her own hand.

Dirk Lehmann's Python · Dec 28, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
That is one example that disproves your point. I could also talk about the obvious development of Han and Leia if you’d like? Even Lando has more character development than Rey in the half an hour he’s in Empire.

Rose. A brilliant NEW character.
Rey doesn't change much, but she learns a lot more about the force. Is that basically what the problem is, impatience that she isn't much stronger than shewas in the ladt film?
Ren develops considerably, he kills Snoke FFS and leads the Resistance.
Even ****ing Luke develops. But the fanboys don't like that because he dies.

It's a pointless argument from the sort of nerds who find fault with an entertaining film but **** off about Boba Fett because, er, he has about one line and a cool ship. If Empire was 2017 they'd be moaning about the CGI.

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Acker79 · Dec 28, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
The difference is Rey does it with no training whatsoever. Luke only uses the force after some, and I use the term loosely, training with Obi Wan Kenobi. Even though it’s minimal, Obi-Wan still teaches him about the force and how it can be used meaning the only bit of the force Luke even touches during a New Hope is to give the torpedoes a nudge. Rey uses a Jedi mind trick, pulls a lightsaber towards her (something Luke didn’t manage until Empire which is set 3 years after a New Hope) and uses the force to beat a well trained Kylo Ren without a scratch. HUGE difference between the two.

Luke knew nothing of the force. Rey was aware of the force's existence through stories, so would have had some idea of what might be possible, and as one of those links note, Maz Kanata gave her advice about closing her eyes and feeling the force. I'm sure you'll argue that's not as much training as a few minutes with a blaster orb, and a voiceover telling him to trust the force, but his training was not that much more than hers.

As this film establishes, Kylo Ren was unbalanced (he had just killed his father so wasn't in the best place), injured from Chewie's blast, and at no point does he really try to hurt her, he is trying to convince her to join him, using mostly defensive moves. She on the other hand is skilled with a staff, and used that experience using the light sabre with similar fighting styles (and really, if you're happy to accept Luke can pilot an X-wing better than anyone in the rebellion the first time he flies one based on his experience with a t-16 back home, but refuse to accept Rey could adapt from using a staff with which she is clearly very experienced to using a light sabre, well there's no hope for you).

midnight_rendezvous · Dec 28, 2017

Rohan Ince's Python said:
Rose. A brilliant NEW character.
Rey doesn't change much, but she learns a lot more about the force. Is that basically what the problem is, impatience that she isn't much stronger than shewas in the ladt film?
Ren develops considerably, he kills Snoke FFS and leads the Resistance.
Even ****ing Luke develops. But the fanboys don't like that because he dies.

It's a pointless argument from the sort of nerds who find fault with an entertaining film but **** off about Boba Fett because, er, he has about one line and a cool ship. If Empire was 2017 they'd be moaning about the CGI.

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Rose was utterly useless. Her subplot with Finn was nothing more than filler to try and make Finn seem useful. I’ll find fault with the film because the narrative and the writing is poor, there are so many continuity errors it hurts and the characters are poor. Oh and us ‘nerds’ took issue with Luke because the character was badly written and so un-Luke it was frankly insulting.

Acker79 · Dec 28, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
Her going resulted in the death of the Snoke, the most powerful force user of the galaxy. As we know she can already kick Kylo’s ass he’s not exactly that much of a threat. When Luke was overconfident in Empire and Anakin in Attack if The Clones, they were both easily defeated and left scarred by their experiences. Rey isn’t. Her only failure is that Kylo didn’t turn yet she still managed to ensure that the biggest threat (Snoke) was killed even if not by her own hand.

When has she actually beaten him when he is trying to fight back, and isn't injured from Chewie's mega-blaster, and unbalanced from killing his father? He spends most of their fight in TFA blocking and trying to convince her to join him. She didn't beat him because he wasn't fighting her in that film.

And Snoke is so badass, shouldn't that indicate how Ren is more of a threat than you are currently giving him credit for - Ren deceived and defeated him. No mean feat.

midnight_rendezvous · Dec 28, 2017

Acker79 said:
Luke knew nothing of the force. Rey was aware of the force's existence through stories, so would have had some idea of what might be possible, and as one of those links note, Maz Kanata gave her advice about closing her eyes and feeling the force. I'm sure you'll argue that's not as much training as a few minutes with a blaster orb, and a voiceover telling him to trust the force, but his training was not that much more than hers.

As this film establishes, Kylo Ren was unbalanced (he had just killed his father so wasn't in the best place), injured from Chewie's blast, and at no point does he really try to hurt her, he is trying to convince her to join him, using mostly defensive moves. She on the other hand is skilled with a staff, and used that experience using the light sabre with similar fighting styles (and really, if you're happy to accept Luke can pilot an X-wing better than anyone in the rebellion the first time he flies one based on his experience with a t-16 back home, but refuse to accept Rey could adapt from using a staff with which she is clearly very experienced to using a light sabre, well there's no hope for you).

It’s well established that Luke is a good pilot (Biggs tells Red leader as such before the attack on the Death Star). And he’s not the best pilot at that time, Wedge is. Luke is only referred to as one of the best pilots post New Hope in the EU. And the comparison going from staff to fighting with a lightsaber is questionable as they are two very different styles of martial art/ combat. Even if she was proficient with a staff, an injured, but highly trained Jedi should have been able to best her easily.

Bold Seagull · Dec 28, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
The difference is Rey does it with no training whatsoever. Luke only uses the force after some, and I use the term loosely, training with Obi Wan Kenobi. Even though it’s minimal, Obi-Wan still teaches him about the force and how it can be used meaning the only bit of the force Luke even touches during a New Hope is to give the torpedoes a nudge. Rey uses a Jedi mind trick, pulls a lightsaber towards her (something Luke didn’t manage until Empire which is set 3 years after a New Hope) and uses the force to beat a well trained Kylo Ren without a scratch. HUGE difference between the two.

How do you know how all force able kids developed or didn't and at what pace? In APM we learn that some 'slip through the net' because the Jedi obviously actively seeked out young kids who display force abilities before any training. We know that Yoda considered Luke too old to train. We don't know that Luke was actually unique in not previously displaying force abilities prior to Obi Wan teaching him. So if all force active people develop differently why is it so important that Rey's or Luke's or any of the other Jedi for that matter took different paths? As a note, don't think Luke used the force to nudge the torpedoes, just when to fire them at the right time, but that is probably another debate.

We know there were a lot of Jedi, but we've only seen how 3 characters develop, maybe 4 if you include Obi Wan but he was nearing the end of his training in TPM, and the 3 we've seen have all been different. Not sure why there is such an issue that they are not all the same?

midnight_rendezvous · Dec 28, 2017

Acker79 said:
When has she actually beaten him when he is trying to fight back, and isn't injured from Chewie's mega-blaster, and unbalanced from killing his father? He spends most of their fight in TFA blocking and trying to convince her to join him. She didn't beat him because he wasn't fighting her in that film.

And Snoke is so badass, shouldn't that indicate how Ren is more of a threat than you are currently giving him credit for - Ren deceived and defeated him. No mean feat.

Which makes the way Ren killed Snoke even more ridiculous than it was already. Snoke is more powerful than both of them combined and killing him off the way they did is one of my many issues with the film. I also don’t buy the whole ‘but Rey wasn’t trying in TFA’. What, so he’s going to let this girl kill or injur him because he wants to turn her? He’s also a highly trained Jedi, even with an injury he should be able to brush her aside relatively easily like he did Finn, albeit maybe with a bit more effort and she’s force sensitive.

midnight_rendezvous · Dec 28, 2017

Bold Seagull said:
How do you know how all force able kids developed or didn't and at what pace? In APM we learn that some 'slip through the net' because the Jedi obviously actively seeked out young kids who display force abilities before any training. We know that Yoda considered Luke too old to train. We don't know that Luke was actually unique in not previously displaying force abilities prior to Obi Wan teaching him. So if all force active people develop differently why is it so important that Rey's or Luke's or any of the other Jedi for that matter took different paths? As a note, don't think Luke used the force to nudge the torpedoes, just when to fire them at the right time, but that is probably another debate.

We know there were a lot of Jedi, but we've only seen how 3 characters develop, maybe 4 if you include Obi Wan but he was nearing the end of his training in TPM, and the 3 we've seen have all been different. Not sure why there is such an issue that they are not all the same?

It’s well established in the universe that training to become a Jedi takes years, which is why they start so young. Rey seems to be able to use the force in ways only seen previously through years of training. She’s a Mary Sue, as they say,

Acker79 · Dec 28, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
Which makes the way Ren killed Snoke even more ridiculous than it was already. Snoke is more powerful than both of them combined and killing him off the way they did is one of my many issues with the film.

I'm not entirely happy he was killed, or the way they did it. But that isn't particularly relevant. If Kylo Ren can deceive and kill someone you clearly accept is so tremendously powerful, he deserves to be seen as more of a threat than you have given him credit for.

midnight_rendezvous said:
I also don’t buy the whole ‘but [Ren] wasn’t trying in TFA’. What, so he’s going to let this girl kill or injur him because he wants to turn her? He’s also a highly trained Jedi, even with an injury he should be able to brush her aside relatively easily like he did Finn, albeit maybe with a bit more effort and she’s force sensitive.

Firstly, Snoke had instructed Kylo to bring the girl to him. He was following instruction.
Secondly, he isn't a highly trained jedi. He was corrupted by Snoke and turned against Luke before his training was complete, he hadn't completed his training as a sith either (Snoke notes as the starkiller base is falling apart that Kylo should return to him to complete his training)
Thirdly, she isn't really a threat to him for the early part of their fight, he is comfortably parrying her (despite all his weaknesses). She doesn't become a threat to him until just after catching him off by surprise with her own use of raw force, knocking him off balance and taking the opportunity to lay into him giving him little chance to react, and in the moment he would be able to react, she stops attacking him anyway and the planet splits up taking them away from each other. He doesn't need to go against his orders to protect his life.

Dirk Lehmann's Python · Dec 28, 2017

All this thread has taught me is how much people overthink and complicate things.

It's just a movie, after all. 2 and a hour hours, designed to entertain people of all ages (and make Disneya stash of cash)

Wow.

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Acker79 · Dec 28, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
It’s well established in the universe that training to become a Jedi takes years, which is why they start so young. Rey seems to be able to use the force in ways only seen previously through years of training. She’s a Mary Sue, as they say,

Except she's not because the definition of a Mary Sue is an original character in fan fiction(often an avatar of the author). Rey is a character in official canon, not fan fiction. If the use of 'Mary Sue' has changed it is simply changed to 'a female character so much like a male charactor they have idolised that it intimidates insecure fanboys'.

Again, Luke didn't start early, he didn't have years of training. He had a few minutes with Obi Wan, then a short while with Yoda in ESB where he does a few handstands and a bit of running before lifting a ship out of a swamp. He leaves yoda to save his friends, when he goes back to Yoda in RotJ he is told he needs no more training and is now a Jedi. That isn't the years of training.

midnight_rendezvous · Dec 28, 2017

Acker79 said:
I'm not entirely happy he was killed, or the way they did it. But that isn't particularly relevant. If Kylo Ren can deceive and kill someone you clearly accept is so tremendously powerful, he deserves to be seen as more of a threat than you have given him credit for.

Firstly, Snoke had instructed Kylo to bring the girl to him. He was following instruction.
Secondly, he isn't a highly trained jedi. He was corrupted by Snoke and turned against Luke before his training was complete, he hadn't completed his training as a sith either (Snoke notes as the starkiller base is falling apart that Kylo should return to him to complete his training)
Thirdly, she isn't really a threat to him for the early part of their fight, he is comfortably parrying her (despite all his weaknesses). She doesn't become a threat to him until just after catching him off by surprise with her own use of raw force, knocking him off balance and taking the opportunity to lay into him giving him little chance to react, and in the moment he would be able to react, she stops attacking him anyway and the planet splits up taking them away from each other. He doesn't need to go against his orders to protect his life.

Fair points. I don’t think Kylo has the presence or the intimidation factor to be ‘the big bad guy’ though. It took Vader three films to be defeated. Kylo was bested in the very first. For all his faults though, I still maintain Kylo is highly trained (I believe Snoke references it in TFA re the knights of Ren). His training may not be ‘complete’ but look at how powerful Anakin and Luke were before they completed their training.

Acker79 · Dec 28, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
Fair points. I don’t think Kylo has the presence or the intimidation factor to be ‘the big bad guy’ though. It took Vader three films to be defeated. Kylo was bested in the very first. For all his faults though, I still maintain Kylo is highly trained (I believe Snoke references it in TFA re the knights of Ren). His training may not be ‘complete’ but look at how powerful Anakin and Luke were before they completed their training.

To be honest, I'm not convinced yet that he can be the big bad. He needs to grow up a bit out of his sulkiness, but that's a problem for the next film to address.

midnight_rendezvous · Dec 28, 2017

Acker79 said:
Except she's not because the definition of a Mary Sue is an original character in fan fiction(often an avatar of the author). Rey is a character in official canon, not fan fiction. If the use of 'Mary Sue' has changed it is simply changed to 'a female character so much like a male charactor they have idolised that it intimidates insecure fanboys'.

Again, Luke didn't start early, he didn't have years of training. He had a few minutes with Obi Wan, then a short while with Yoda in ESB where he does a few handstands and a bit of running before lifting a ship out of a swamp. He leaves yoda to save his friends, when he goes back to Yoda in RotJ he is told he needs no more training and is now a Jedi. That isn't the years of training.

t

Fair enough but she can still perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Which IS partly the definition of a Mary Sue. The fact she is female is utterly irrelevant. I never mentioned her gender so to imply it is because she is female that I take issue with how over powered she is is a massive stretch.

And Luke DID train for years. The gap between A New Hope and Empire is three years, in which he did train in the force (EU cannon). As for his training with Yoda there is no mention of time. It could anywhere between 30 minutes and a month+. But even after that training Luke still can’t best Vader.

Tyrone Biggums · Dec 29, 2017

Rohan Ince's Python said:
It's just a movie, after all.

Wow.

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Except it's not. The Star Wars world isn't just "movies". Many more strings to its bow.

Tyrone Biggums · Dec 29, 2017

Acker79 said:
Except she's not because the definition of a Mary Sue is an original character in fan fiction(often an avatar of the author). Rey is a character in official canon, not fan fiction. If the use of 'Mary Sue' has changed it is simply changed to 'a female character so much like a male charactor they have idolised that it intimidates insecure fanboys'.

This whole statement is wrong.

Again, Luke didn't start early, he didn't have years of training. He had a few minutes with Obi Wan, then a short while with Yoda in ESB where he does a few handstands and a bit of running before lifting a ship out of a swamp. He leaves yoda to save his friends, when he goes back to Yoda in RotJ he is told he needs no more training and is now a Jedi. That isn't the years of training.

You left out the point where Luke was constantly being bested by other characters and often had to be rescued by other characters in the movie.

Tyrone Biggums · Dec 29, 2017

Uncle Spielberg said:
Do you think you might take it all a bit too seriously ?

Nope. The irony of you questioning others if they take a movie/movies too seriously isn't lost on me. Not that it's just restricted to movies.

Tyrone Biggums · Dec 29, 2017

beorhthelm said:
think you need to move on from this subject. Rey starts out the same as Luke, though she has the plot advantage of living in shithole and looking after her self as an indentured servent, while he was a wet behind the ears farmer, who hadnt even ventured into the nearby starport. the dislike for Rey just comes across as misogyny.

Another who can't comprehend. This is about shitty storyline writing, not what gender the character is.

Rey the character is shit lazy writing. Just one of multiple examples of shit writing in this movie.

If its all about "misogyny" with Rey's character with the fans then why the **** was Ahsoka Tano so popular then? I'm really looking forward to your explanation on this one. The same fans who don't like the character of Rey loved Ashoka.

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