[Cricket] Second Ashes Test Australia vs England Adelaide 2nd-6th December 2017

BensGrandad · Dec 5, 2017

hans kraay fan club said:
Oh but he definitely would.

BG thinks Moeen is rubbish. Bearing in mind he's also written off Stoneman, Malan, Westley, Woakes, Bairstow, Ball, etc over the last few months, I'm not sure exactly who he would pick.

I think that we are very low in choice as the short type cricket is killing the game as a game and pandering to the finances of crowds but not producing batsmen who can build an innings or bowlers that can bowl economically for long spells. I think that like Moeen we have the best of a bad bunch. He is a our top spinner and way behind the likes of Laker and Lock for ability or even more recently Swan.

spring hall convert · Dec 5, 2017

BensGrandad said:
I think that we are very low in choice as the short type cricket is killing the game as a game and pandering to the finances of crowds but not producing batsmen who can build an innings or bowlers that can bowl economically for long spells. I think that like Moeen we have the best of a bad bunch. He is a our top spinner and way behind the likes of Laker and Lock for ability or even more recently Swan.

There's a pretty sharp drop from Swann to the next best in the last 30 years though BG. I'd say Ali is worth more to the team than Panesar, Giles, Tufnell, Croft or Embury of recent vintage.

Outside of the three you mentioned and Underwood, we've never really produced great spinners. Conditions back home aren't really conducive to it.

Eeyore · Dec 5, 2017

spring hall convert said:
There's a pretty sharp drop from Swann to the next best in the last 30 years though BG. I'd say Ali is worth more to the team than Panesar, Giles, Tufnell, Croft or Embury of recent vintage.

Outside of the three you mentioned and Underwood, we've never really produced great spinners. Conditions back home aren't really conducive to it.

I always rated Phil Edmonds. He was the best English spinner during the 1980s and key to the Middlesex years of plenty. He was only selected for England when it was unavoidable though. Attitude issues.

hans kraay fan club · Dec 5, 2017

spring hall convert said:
There's a pretty sharp drop from Swann to the next best in the last 30 years though BG. I'd say Ali is worth more to the team than Panesar, Giles, Tufnell, Croft or Embury of recent vintage.
.

He's a comparable bowler to those on that list, and a vastly superior batsman.

spring hall convert · Dec 5, 2017

hans kraay fan club said:
He's a comparable bowler to those on that list, and a vastly superior batsman.

On his day Tufnell was easily the best bowler on that list. But he contributed nothing else.

Of course Ali doesn't look great in comparison to Swann. Swann is arguably the best spinner England has ever had.

hans kraay fan club · Dec 5, 2017

spring hall convert said:
On his day Tufnell was easily the best bowler on that list. But he contributed nothing else.

Of course Ali doesn't look great in comparison to Swann. Swann is arguably the best spinner England has ever had.

Yeah - wouldn't argue with any of that. The 'on his day' part is important in regards to Tufnell though - easily the most dangerous of those bowlers, but erratic on a bad day, too.

He started as a batsman, interestingly. You'd never have known it, by the time he was playing Tests.

Publius Ovidius · Dec 5, 2017

spring hall convert said:
On his day Tufnell was easily the best bowler on that list. But he contributed nothing else.

Of course Ali doesn't look great in comparison to Swann. Swann is arguably the best spinner England has ever had.

bit of a sweeping statement when you consider Laker, Titmus, Edmonds, Embury, Underwood, Locke, Verity even Giles.

underwood was totally unplayable in his day...on a wet wicket. I haven't seen a better spinner than him apart from probably Warne or Mushie.

spring hall convert · Dec 5, 2017

Publius Ovidius said:
bit of a sweeping statement when you consider Laker, Titmus, Edmonds, Embury, Underwood, Locke, Verity even Giles.

underwood was totally unplayable in his day...on a wet wicket. I haven't seen a better spinner than him apart from probably Warne or Mushie.

I don't think it is. I said arguably. And I also said that Laker, Lock and Underwood were up there. The other names you suggest are at least one rung (two in Giles's case) below.

If you take those top 4 out, post-war I would imagine that overall no one else contributes more than Moeen Ali.

But I suppose the main point I was making is that if you look at English spinners of recent vintage, Swann is a massive outlier.

Perry Milkins · Dec 5, 2017

Always astonished as to why Mushy never got called up for England.

BensGrandad · Dec 5, 2017

Publius Ovidius said:
bit of a sweeping statement when you consider Laker, Titmus, Edmonds, Embury, Underwood, Locke, Verity even Giles.

underwood was totally unplayable in his day...on a wet wicket. I haven't seen a better spinner than him apart from probably Warne or Mushie.

I would say thet were all better than Ali as a bowler but most except Laker,although competant tail end batsmen were not as good a batsman as him.

Perry Milkins · Dec 5, 2017

BensGrandad said:
I would say thet were all better than Ali as a bowler but most except Laker,although competant tail end batsmen were not as good a batsman as him.

and another thing. What about John Denman, Chris Waller, Giles Cheatle or Nicky Wisdom!

Gwylan · Dec 5, 2017

spring hall convert said:
I don't think it is. I said arguably. And I also said that Laker, Lock and Underwood were up there. The other names you suggest are at least one rung (two in Giles's case) below.

Really? Swann's average 29.96. Verity's average 24.37

No-one mentioned Rhodes (average 26.96 and a batting average of over 30) or Blythe (average 18.36).
Tich Freeman only played 12 tests but still had an average of 25.86 (but nearly 4000 F/C wickets at 18).
And we haven't mentioned Peel, Briggs, Wright,Bosanquet, Goddard and Illingworth.

I don't what's the more astonishing claim: that Swann is one rung above the likes of Verity and Rhodes or that England can't produce spinners.

LVGull · Dec 5, 2017

banjo said:
If we can win this, and I know it’s s big if. Will set it up to be a cracking series. Aussies will either be very deflated, or more fired up, and England will be high in confidence. Please please let This happen. Who said test cricket is dead.

Let’s hope so and knock the Aussies confidence. But my head says when I wake up, we will be all out for about 220.

spring hall convert · Dec 5, 2017

Gwylan said:
Really? Swann's average 29.96. Verity's average 24.37

No-one mentioned Rhodes (average 26.96 and a batting average of over 30) or Blythe (average 18.36).
Tich Freeman only played 12 tests but still had an average of 25.86 (but nearly 4000 F/C wickets at 18).
And we haven't mentioned Peel, Briggs, Wright,Bosanquet, Goddard and Illingworth.

I don't what's the more astonishing claim: that Swann is one rung above the likes of Verity and Rhodes or that England can't produce spinners.

Since the advent of covered pitches Swann is heads and shoulders above anyone else. Also in that same timeframe he is the only spinner we have produced even approaching world class. So yes I do think we have a problem producing spinners.

The context of the conversation was in judging Mooen Ali against Swann, which I think is a touch harsh given the two things I mention above.

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banjo · Dec 5, 2017

LVGull said:
Let’s hope so and knock the Aussies confidence. But my head says when I wake up, we will be all out for about 220.

Gwylan · Dec 5, 2017

spring hall convert said:
Since the advent of covered pitches Swann is heads and shoulders above anyone else. Also in that same timeframe he is the only spinner we have produced even approaching world class. So yes I do think we have a problem producing spinners.

Yes, spinners no longer get help from the wickets that they used to but, in test matches at least, they're not getting huge help from DRS, they're getting many decisions now that would never have been out in the old days.

There are still spinners around: you forgot Panesar, who had a reasonable test and FC career (and came unstuck for non-cricketing reasons when he should have reached his peak). Crane is with the Ashes party and, at 20, he's got plenty of time on his side. Jack Leach is desperately unlucky not to have played for England.

The main problem that spinners have is that the selectors look for people who can bat a bit. Years ago, that wouldn't have mattered - of the spinners I mentioned earlier, only Rhodes and Verity could bat. But these days, a player can't concentrate on bowling alone. Captains are also less inclined to take risks with spinners. Look at Kerrigan, a decent county spinner who took some tap in his only test match and was taken off, never to play again.

spring hall convert · Dec 5, 2017

Gwylan said:
Yes, spinners no longer get help from the wickets that they used to but, in test matches at least, they're not getting huge help from DRS, they're getting many decisions now that would never have been out in the old days.

There are still spinners around: you forgot Panesar, who had a reasonable test and FC career (and came unstuck for non-cricketing reasons when he should have reached his peak). Crane is with the Ashes party and, at 20, he's got plenty of time on his side. Jack Leach is desperately unlucky not to have played for England.

The main problem that spinners have is that the selectors look for people who can bat a bit. Years ago, that wouldn't have mattered - of the spinners I mentioned earlier, only Rhodes and Verity could bat. But these days, a player can't concentrate on bowling alone. Captains are also less inclined to take risks with spinners. Look at Kerrigan, a decent county spinner who took some tap in his only test match and was taken off, never to play again.

I didn't forget Panesar. I mentioned him in the list of bowlers that Moeen is comparable to. A marginally better bowler than Moeen but Moeen's overall contribution is higher.

Warne's famous critique of playing the same test match 50 times was about right for Monty. Definitely a rung or two below Swann and never threatening world class.

I'm all for playing the best spinner and actually would prefer Moeen to earn his crust as a batsman who bowls a bit. However, an Ashes series isn't the place to blood a debutant imo. I'm still not sure what Rashid did so wrong in the winter.

Another problem is at home we can get away with a half decent spinner who bats. The problem only ever unearths itself properly on the sub-continent.

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pasty · Dec 5, 2017

Is the start 3:30? I get up at 4:30 anyway so may well get up an hour early and catch the start.

LVGull · Dec 5, 2017

pasty said:
Is the start 3:30? I get up at 4:30 anyway so may well get up an hour early and catch the start.

Keep it at 0430. You could be disappointed.

banjo · Dec 5, 2017

LVGull said:
Keep it at 0430. You could be disappointed.

Set up nicely though. We can dream.

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