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[News] Should The Church pay tax?



studio150

studio150

Well-known member
Jul 30, 2011
29,622
On the Border
What next taxing the air that we breathe

If all Churches and by inference all Charities are subject to full taxation, would the public not think twice about donating to such causes, and expect the Government to pick up the full tab for the work that they do,
What would be the point of donating already taxed money for it to be taxed again. Does Gift Aid fall away as from the moral viewpoint it can't be right for such organisations to benefit from this.
 






Wrong-Direction

Wrong-Direction

Well-known member
Mar 10, 2013
13,422
studio150 said:
What next taxing the air that we breathe

If all Churches and by inference all Charities are subject to full taxation, would the public not think twice about donating to such causes, and expect the Government to pick up the full tab for the work that they do,
What would be the point of donating already taxed money for it to be taxed again. Does Gift Aid fall away as from the moral viewpoint it can't be right for such organisations to benefit from this.
Click to expand...
Taxing the air we breathe? Ssshh keep your voice down the Tories might get wind of it

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk
 


DavidinSouthampton

DavidinSouthampton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 3, 2012
16,589
abc said:
Firstly may I refer you back to the Christian Aid position claiming there is a moral case to pay tax regardless of whether you legally have to. Secondly why is such a enormously wealthy organisation permitted charity status in the first place? The Church pay their Clergy, Google pay their IT staff. They are both essentially businesses (and the Church Commissioners are as commercially ruthless in business as anyone) and so should surely both pay tax.
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Apart from anything else, the trustees of any charity have a statutory responsibility to make the most of their assets.

And in terms of being a business, the Church of England has an enormous amount of statutory responsibility that organisations like Google don't have - burying people, marrying people - everybody has a right to be married in their parish church etc etc.

And I think that most people would accept that Churches (it's only the Church of England, I think, which is so asset rich) are a force for good in the country as a whole and in their local communities). If church people didn't do as much voluntarily as they do (not just food banks and the like) our society would fall apart.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,105
Faversham
As a business, any religion should pay tax. Churches are not charities. If they were they would not be able to discriminate over beneficiaries with respect to religion. Catholic schools expect pupils to be catholic, for example. Ergo, not a charity.

Unfortunately, if we want to give the CoE a tax free status then the laws dictate same rules for all the other heathans and devil worshippers. After careful consideration, I say, ****** the lot of them. All religions are cults, and many of them have an 'n' in place of the 'l'. Let them ALL pay tax!
 




pastafarian

pastafarian

Well-known member
Sep 4, 2011
11,902
Sussex
Isnt there some sort of Religious Tax on income in Austria (maybe Germany too) . Seems like a fair way of getting money out of people and separates real religious people from the pretend types.
 


E

essbee1

Well-known member
Jun 25, 2014
4,133
Thunder Bolt said:
The assets earn money which is used to pay clergy, house them, and for upkeep of the buildings.
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So why are most churches still fund-raising for a crumbling roof
or a damp vestry or what? Clearly the CofE is not upkeeping its
buildings.
 


Thecoffeecake

Thecoffeecake

New member
Oct 10, 2017
130
Philadelphia
If there's any profit, of course. If not, and it's just an institution designed to organize believers and pay its bills, of course not. There should be significant oversight, either way.
 






BadFish

BadFish

Huge Member
Oct 19, 2003
17,114
Westdene Seagull said:
I'd like to say yes but it isn't that straight forward.

It has 16,000 churches to maintain yet only attract 760,000 people each week to worship - less than 50 people per church. That seems like an extravagance and maybe it should look to sell some of those assets ...... and pay tax on the sales.

On the other hand it is responsible for the upkeep on 45% of the country's Grade I listed buildings for which it should get a tax break.
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If this were any other business or service they would be looking at downsizing or merging churches.
 








pastafarian

pastafarian

Well-known member
Sep 4, 2011
11,902
Sussex
sjamesb3466 said:
All religions and private schools should pay tax imo.
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There is probably sound reasoning for religious organisations to be contributing more tax on some of its activities, but in the general point "should religions pay tax" You need to make a choice, do you want separation of church and state and people to be free to believe in and exercise their right to their religious beliefs? If you don’t want this then by all means go with your plan and Tax a religion in general, it’s the simplest way to suppress it.
Hopefully one day religion will simply not be considered relevant, taxation of its foundations should not be considered as a tool to achieve this, education is the key.
 


H

Half Time Pies

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2003
1,407
Brighton
abc said:
Firstly may I refer you back to the Christian Aid position claiming there is a moral case to pay tax regardless of whether you legally have to. Secondly why is such a enormously wealthy organisation permitted charity status in the first place? The Church pay their Clergy, Google pay their IT staff. They are both essentially businesses (and the Church Commissioners are as commercially ruthless in business as anyone) and so should surely both pay tax.
Click to expand...

You could apply this to most national charities then. Cancer research or the Alzheimers society for example manage massive budgets, have huge administrative costs, large numbers of paid staff, highly paid CEO's and own and manage buildings. So by your reckoning they should pay tax as well? And if so where do you draw the line?
 
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H

Half Time Pies

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2003
1,407
Brighton
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
As a business, any religion should pay tax. Churches are not charities. If they were they would not be able to discriminate over beneficiaries with respect to religion. Catholic schools expect pupils to be catholic, for example. Ergo, not a charity.

Unfortunately, if we want to give the CoE a tax free status then the laws dictate same rules for all the other heathans and devil worshippers. After careful consideration, I say, ****** the lot of them. All religions are cults, and many of them have an 'n' in place of the 'l'. Let them ALL pay tax!
Click to expand...

I am currently setting up a charity, the regulations state that it must have purely charitable objectives but there is nothing to stop a charity from benefiting a certain segment of society, in fact most charities do.

Many churches do a lot of good in the communities in which they are based and help their own congregation and the wider community. It doesn't matter if you agree with religion or not, if a religious organisation meets the criteria and can prove that they are charitable then I see no reason to stop them from benefiting from having that status.
 


Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,491
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
essbee1 said:
So why are most churches still fund-raising for a crumbling roof
or a damp vestry or what? Clearly the CofE is not upkeeping its
buildings.
Click to expand...

Most churches? How many? As has been mentioned, a lot of buildings are listed, so have to be restored to a set specification.
Look at St Peters. You can't just nip to B&Q for a stone flying buttress.
There are the vicarages as well, and pensions for the ministers when they retire.

BadFish said:
If this were any other business or service they would be looking at downsizing or merging churches.
Click to expand...

They do.

Like jakarta's wife, I used to be on a PCC, so know a little about church finances. It is only a little, though. They don't make profits, but do pay tax when paying the clergy, as in NI contributions, income tax and VAT.
 


Gazwag

Gazwag

5 millionth post poster
Mar 4, 2004
30,145
Bexhill-on-Sea
abc said:
Not so. The majority of the C of E's income comes from investments, commercial,residential and agricultural rents and land sales for development. Individual congregations may contribute income to the running of their own church but I am not suggesting that they should be taxed.
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I said churches and yes they do earn the majority of their income from their congregation. Individual churches pay their contribution (if they can) to the diocese to pay for their clergy, pensions, clergy property cost, church insurance. Its a bit silly saying C of E as an entity as it encompasses everything within to you cannot tax one part of a charity but not another. Clergy pay tax on their earning btw. Start taxing churches and you will end up with more and more converted into weatherspoons.
 






Uncle C

Uncle C

Well-known member
Jul 6, 2004
11,683
Bishops Stortford
Duplicate
 
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Uncle C

Uncle C

Well-known member
Jul 6, 2004
11,683
Bishops Stortford
jakarta said:
Mrs Jakarta sits on a PCC and Storrington isn't a poor Parish but balancing the budget is parlous.

There is a constant pressure on keeping the three 1000 year old buildings we have in fettle, let alone paying the Clergy to work in them.

Perhaps you could let us know where these 'huge incomes' are going?
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PCCs are self serving and still have plenty of opportunity to plunder CRL from any church neighbours irrespective of their religion.
 
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