[News] Should The Church pay tax?

Uncle C · Nov 22, 2017

Let me explain why Church Councils are self serving. There's more:

When a Parochial Church Council (PCC) decides it wants to rob the local community to pay for repairs to its Chancel, then it has carte blanche to pick on any single individual and demand the full amount - could be in excess of say half a million pounds.

It has shown in the past that it is happy to take that family through the Courts and force the sale of their house and land to pay for their Chancel repairs - in effect destroying that family. Remember it has actually done this in the past.

Ask yourself why the PCC would select a particular family to pursue within their neighbourhood. I'm sure there's no possibility of personal vendettas there.

pastafarian · Nov 22, 2017

SweatyMexican said:
Why should the government favour one religion over another. If we give tax free status to Christianity then why not the people who worship the spaghetti monster.

In fairness if the gov gave us tax free status we would probably be too drunk to know it had and if we did realise we would just invest the money on strippers and pirate ships..........ok where do i sign?

Thunder Bolt · Nov 22, 2017

Uncle C said:
Let me explain why Church Councils are self serving. There's more:

When a Parochial Church Council (PCC) decides it wants to rob the local community to pay for repairs to its Chancel, then it has carte blanche to pick on any single individual and demand the full amount - could be in excess of say half a million pounds.

It has shown in the past that it is happy to take that family through the Courts and force the sale of their house and land to pay for their Chancel repairs - in effect destroying that family. Remember it has actually done this in the past.

Ask yourself why the PCC would select a particular family to pursue within their neighbourhood. I'm sure there's no possibility of personal vendettas there.

I was curious and looked it up. You have to put the blame on Henry VIII for this one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-forced-medieval-law-foot-church-repairs.html

abc · Nov 22, 2017

Half Time Pies said:
You could apply this to most national charities then. Cancer research or the Alzheimers society for example manage massive budgets, have huge administrative costs, large numbers of paid staff, highly paid CEO's and own and manage buildings. So by your reckoning they should pay tax as well? And if so where do you draw the line?

Fair point. I suppose I was drawn to the hypocrisy of Christian Aid, an (albeit very valuable) organisation pointing out the moral duty for large organisations to pay tax and yet ultimately linked to an organisation that is extremely wealthy and asset rich that does not. I don't think Christian Aid are wrong in principal but rather that the C of E should pay tax too.

I also don't think charities should pay tax but rather I question why the church is a charity in the first place. Any business can make charitable donations or do charitable deeds and get tax relief on that expenditure, as could the Church. But should they be able to make millions from equity investments, land sales for housing etc and pay no tax? Personally that doesn't feel right.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 22, 2017

abc said:
Fair point. I suppose I was drawn to the hypocrisy of Christian Aid, an (albeit very valuable) organisation pointing out the moral duty for large organisations to pay tax and yet ultimately linked to an organisation that is extremely wealthy and asset rich that does not. I don't think Christian Aid are wrong in principal but rather that the C of E should pay tax too.

I also don't think charities should pay tax but rather I question why the church is a charity in the first place. Any business can make charitable donations or do charitable deeds and get tax relief on that expenditure, as could the Church. But should they be able to make millions from equity investments, land sales for housing etc and pay no tax? Personally that doesn't feel right.

Charities like Oxfam and Christian Aid account for every penny they spend unlike some charities who pay their execs massive wages.

https://www.oxfam.org.uk/donate/how-we-spend-your-money

Christian Aid
The facts and figures are that long-term development projects received 49 per cent of our funding this year, 18 per cent went on emergency relief, 16 per cent on advocacy and campaigning, 16 per cent on fundraising and one per cent on administration.

Arthritic Toe · Nov 22, 2017

essbee1 said:
So why are most churches still fund-raising for a crumbling roof
or a damp vestry or what? Clearly the CofE is not upkeeping its
buildings.

Exactly - events in aid of fixing the church roof is a bit like holding a jumble sale to raise money for the repairs to Richard Branson's Caribbean retreat.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 22, 2017

Arthritic Toe said:
Exactly - events in aid of fixing the church roof is a bit like holding a jumble sale to raise money for the repairs to Richard Branson's Caribbean retreat.

A very strange analogy as Richard Branson can sell his retreat at any time. The Anglican church cannot sell grade II listed buildings like St Peters in Brighton.
Incidentally, how many of you have been asked to contribute to the restoration of this church?

Arthritic Toe · Nov 22, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
A very strange analogy as Richard Branson can sell his retreat at any time. The Anglican church cannot sell grade II listed buildings like St Peters in Brighton.
Incidentally, how many of you have been asked to contribute to the restoration of this church?

Indeed - but it could sell one of the multi-million pound shopping malls it owns with no problem whatsoever.

Gazwag · Nov 22, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
Charities like Oxfam and Christian Aid account for every penny they spend unlike some charities who pay their execs massive wages.

https://www.oxfam.org.uk/donate/how-we-spend-your-money

Christian Aid
The facts and figures are that long-term development projects received 49 per cent of our funding this year, 18 per cent went on emergency relief, 16 per cent on advocacy and campaigning, 16 per cent on fundraising and one per cent on administration.

TBF 1% admin equates to over £1M - highest paid staff is 1@ £130K, 1 @ £100K and 9 @ £90K

Gazwag · Nov 22, 2017

abc said:
I also don't think charities should pay tax but rather I question why the church is a charity in the first place. Any business can make charitable donations or do charitable deeds and get tax relief on that expenditure, as could the Church. But should they be able to make millions from equity investments, land sales for housing etc and pay no tax? Personally that doesn't feel right.

Since when was a church a business, in general its trading comprises of the selling advertising space in its parish magazine. You really need to understand the difference between individual church finances and the church of England as a body in itself. Very few churches individually have much money.

Uncle C · Nov 22, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
I was curious and looked it up. You have to put the blame on Henry VIII for this one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-forced-medieval-law-foot-church-repairs.html

Glad you did some research. Its such a complex issue that most people turn off and of course this gives the Church a fee reign.

When the Government forced the Church to register their CRL claims just a few years back all PCCs were given the option to do it or not. Some said it was not a Christian thing to do, yet most took the opportunity to continue exploting the proletariat (serfs) exactly as Henry VIII had decreed.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 22, 2017

Uncle C said:
Glad you did some research. Its such a complex issue that most people turn off and of course this gives the Church a fee reign.

When the Government forced the Church to register their CRL claims just a few years back all PCCs were given the option to do it or not. Some said it was not a Christian thing to do, yet most took the opportunity to continue exploting the proletariat (serfs) exactly as Henry VIII had decreed.

All PCCs? How many churches are pre 1536?

Thunder Bolt · Nov 22, 2017

Arthritic Toe said:
Indeed - but it could sell one of the multi-million pound shopping malls it owns with no problem whatsoever.

It uses the income to pay clergy, pensions and build houses. CESSA (Church of England Soldiers’, Sailors’ & Airmen’s Housing Association) for example, building sheltered homes for veterans.

Uncle C · Nov 22, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
All PCCs? How many churches are pre 1536?

The 1536 figure was not mine and the CoE will not give out stats so I don't know, but it does affect several thousand properties perhaps even more.

Here is a quote I found

"It is estimated that there are in excess of 5,000 parishes that benefit from CRL".

Murray 17 · Nov 22, 2017

essbee1 said:
So why are most churches still fund-raising for a crumbling roof
or a damp vestry or what? Clearly the CofE is not upkeeping its
buildings.

That's because each church is, in effect, a franchise.

The Parochial Church Council for each church is responsible for paying their clergy, heating the church, paying for repairs etc, and do this by fundraising and renting out premises. The local diocese don't even take a major role in recruiting new clergy!

The money that the C of E makes through other means, such as land sales, goes on paying staff and running costs for the business in general.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 22, 2017

Uncle C said:
The 1536 figure was not mine and the CoE will not give out stats so I don't know, but it does affect several thousand properties perhaps even more.

When I looked it up, having not heard of it before, it was definitely pre 1536 churches.

Wrong-Direction · Nov 22, 2017

More importantly, should the mega wealthy pay their tax?

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Uncle C · Nov 22, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
When I looked it up, having not heard of it before, it was definitely pre 1536 churches.

I thought it applied to churches that were a great deal newer, particularly those that had been built or rebuilt on a former site of an old church. Its a mine field. Here is another quote

"As a general rule, chancel repair liability affects churches built before 1840 or that have been rebuilt after 1836 on the site of an earlier church. There are many instances of a church being rebuilt in the 19th century on a former, sometimes medieval, church site."

Arthritic Toe · Nov 22, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
It uses the income to pay clergy, pensions and build houses. CESSA (Church of England Soldiers’, Sailors’ & Airmen’s Housing Association) for example, building sheltered homes for veterans.

It does indeed. But its income is truly vast and it sits on a massive investment portfolio. The above worthy examples take a tiny fraction of their income. To have them shaking tins for upkeep of the church roof is a complete joke.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 22, 2017

Arthritic Toe said:
It does indeed. But its income is truly vast and it sits on a massive investment portfolio. The above worthy examples take a tiny fraction of their income. To have them shaking tins for upkeep of the church roof is a complete joke.

When was the last time some shook a tin at you for the roof? I don't know churches in Swindon, but as I've pointed out several times in this thread, St Peters is slowly being restored without begging for donations.

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