[News] What SECRETS do the PARADISE Papers hold ?

clapham_gull · Nov 6, 2017

Lower West Stander said:
Haven't read the whole thread but I think this whole thing is hysterical.

Bed wetting over offshore investments? You mean people use offshore tax havens to shelter cash? Wow - who'd have thought it?

I reckon we'd all do if we could (apart from Corbyn and McDonnell obviously) - and the hypocrisy is amazing. How many of us have pensions that invest in offshore vehicles? Companies that borrow in tax friendly jurisdictions?

The Daily Mail is outraged - wonder where the Rothermeres keep their money?

The previous leaks have been so much.

I think this one might be different and more about (at best) hypocrisy and worst complete dishonesty. It's appears to be shining a light on other issues, ownership of Premier League clubs and what ever happened to Michael Hutchence's money.

Also what's interesting in the "concerns" by the company about their clients behaviour.

Lower West Stander · Nov 6, 2017

beorhthelm said:
there is an assumption that any off shore company is avoiding or evading tax. the media stories completely overlook offshore companies can be used simply to hold multiple company for those in other countries to invest. so someone from UK, US, France, Brazil, Japan can all put money into a fund. the companies involved may all be paying taxes in their original country.

Bang on.

Its a long established business. But mentioned the word offshore and there is an inherent assumption that any individual or company which invests or holds offshore is doing something illegal.

Titanic · Nov 6, 2017

John McDonnell is going on the attack over the Paradise Papers, insisting: “Where the Tories refuse to act, Labour will end the era of government turning a blind eye to the scandal of tax avoidance by clamping down on tax havens and ending the loopholes”.

The main revelation from the leak so far is that the Queen’s private estate has money invested offshore. Not entirely unlike John McDonnell’s pension investments being managed in Guernsey…

and Guardian Media Group’s GMG Hazel Acquisition 1 Limited, registered in the Caymans.

:laugh:

Titanic · Nov 6, 2017

Lower West Stander said:
...I reckon we'd all do if we could (apart from Corbyn and McDonnell obviously) - and the hypocrisy is amazing. How many of us have pensions that invest in offshore vehicles? Companies that borrow in tax friendly jurisdictions?...

Weststander · Nov 6, 2017

n1 gull said:
Of course you are right and you can't legally argue a case against what you have stated. The law is the law. My point is although evading tax is wrong if its done on a bigger scale it has a knock on affect on society as that money doesn't get recycled into the economy where as if the local window cleaner doesn't declare a few quid that will probably end up getting spent in shops etc.. I know that is an overly simplistic explanation and doesn't make it right

I totally agree.

But the total lost tax effect of builders, shopkeepers, tax drivers, takeaways, restaurants doing that runs into many £b each fiscal year. The figures are out there. Not just the obvious lost income or corporation tax, but also national insurance and VAT.

Titanic · Nov 6, 2017

Measures taken since 2010 have raised an additional £160bn by new regulation of tax-avoidance schemes, and an additional £800m has been invested in HMRC.

We have one of the lowest tax-gaps in the developed world.

Quite a lot of inaccuracy, hypocrisy and hysteria in the media and from the left-wing echo chambers..

LamieRobertson · Nov 6, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
Before digital cameras, I used to buy film and get my photos developed in Jersey because it was cheaper due to the VAT.
I suppose that makes me guilty, just like the workmen who do jobs for cash in hand.
All self employed ask their accountants to find ways to pay as little tax as possible.
Tax avoidance isn't illegal, but if we're talking immoral, then morals count whether the amount is minuscule or massive.

Agree

Bozza · Nov 6, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
Before digital cameras, I used to buy film and get my photos developed in Jersey because it was cheaper due to the VAT.
I suppose that makes me guilty, just like the workmen who do jobs for cash in hand.
All self employed ask their accountants to find ways to pay as little tax as possible.
Tax avoidance isn't illegal, but if we're talking immoral, then morals count whether the amount is minuscule or massive.

I recall someone I know to be self-employed on here getting all righteous about one of the previous tax efficiency/avoidance stories in the news.

It took me about 2 minutes to find that the limited company umbrella for his self-employment included his partner as a shareholder. She'd replaced his previous partner, and so the chain went back through 2 or 3 partners.

Having a partner as an additional shareholder is a very nice tax efficiency when it comes to paying dividends.

There's a lot of hypocrisy knocking about when it comes to tax.

beorhthelm · Nov 6, 2017

Titanic said:
Measures taken since 2010 have raised an additional £160bn by new regulation of tax-avoidance schemes, and an additional £800m has been invested in HMRC.

We have one of the lowest tax-gaps in the developed world.

Quite a lot of inaccuracy, hypocrisy and hysteria in the media and from the left-wing echo chambers..

problem is the left are enthralled with research paper that claims how there's 120Bn of avoided tax revenues, made up mostly of taxing black market, grey market (i.e. all those self employed that might be skirting the systems edges) and accountancy practice such as asset depreciation (offsetting costs against profits leading to lower taxes). any discrepancies, changes and improvements are ignored.

pb21 · Nov 6, 2017

Titanic said:
Measures taken since 2010 have raised an additional £160bn by new regulation of tax-avoidance schemes, and an additional £800m has been invested in HMRC.

We have one of the lowest tax-gaps in the developed world.

Quite a lot of inaccuracy, hypocrisy and hysteria in the media and from the left-wing echo chambers..

Wow, so previously UK plc was down on £160bn in terms of tax revenue. Considering total tax revenue is currently around £716bn, that £160bn represents a very significant proportion.

I wonder how many more extra billions we will have coming in after another 7 years?

Titanic · Nov 6, 2017

pb21 said:
Wow, so previously UK plc was down on £160bn in terms of tax revenue. Considering total tax revenue is currently around £716bn, that £160bn represents a very significant proportion.

I wonder how many more extra billions we will have coming in after another 7 years?

The £160bn is over the 7 years. Still, a significant move in the right direction.

Titanic · Nov 6, 2017

Three stars of hit BBC sitcom Mrs Brown's Boys diverted more than £2m into an offshore tax-avoidance scheme, Paradise Papers documents show.

Patrick Houlihan and Martin and Fiona Delany transferred their fees into companies in Mauritius and sent money back as loans.

Similar tax avoidance schemes have been subject to investigation and challenges by HMRC in recent years.

The actors have not responded to requests for comment. Roy Lyness, who put the stars in touch with the advisers behind the set-up, was the accountant behind the similar K2 tax avoidance scheme used by comedian Jimmy Carr.

Hopefully that will kill off the show altogether!

pb21 · Nov 6, 2017

Titanic said:
The £160bn is over the 7 years. Still, a significant move in the right direction.

I get that, but if those measures hadn't been put in place the total UK tax revenue today would be over 20% lower. Just goes to show how big the problem was and still is if £800 million is being invested.

Titanic · Nov 6, 2017

As Corbyn goes big on the Paradise Papers, it’s worth nothing that Labour rent their London headquarters from a tax exempt property unit trust fund based offshore in Jersey. Labour are thought to pay nearly a million pounds a year to lease the eighth floor of the Southside development on Victoria Street. The building is owned by WELPUT (The West End of London Property Unit Trust) – an investment trust established in Jersey, and managed by Schroder Property Managers (Jersey) Limited.

Jersey Property Unit Trusts of this nature have a number of tax features that make them attractive – the rent Labour pays goes to Jersey. What did Corbyn say about people who send money offshore?

Weststander · Nov 6, 2017

Bozza said:
I recall someone I know to be self-employed on here getting all righteous about one of the previous tax efficiency/avoidance stories in the news.

It took me about 2 minutes to find that the limited company umbrella for his self-employment included his partner as a shareholder. She'd replaced his previous partner, and so the chain went back through 2 or 3 partners.

Having a partner as an additional shareholder is a very nice tax efficiency when it comes to paying dividends.

There's a lot of hypocrisy knocking about when it comes to tax.

This.

The Queen, the wealthy and celebs are portrayed as THE tax avoiding pariahs, by many individuals all the way down the food chain who are minimising their own tax illegally by tax evasion, or lower level avoidance measures.

Deleted member 22389 · Nov 6, 2017

Titanic said:
As Corbyn goes big on the Paradise Papers, it’s worth nothing that Labour rent their London headquarters from a tax exempt property unit trust fund based offshore in Jersey. Labour are thought to pay nearly a million pounds a year to lease the eighth floor of the Southside development on Victoria Street. The building is owned by WELPUT (The West End of London Property Unit Trust) – an investment trust established in Jersey, and managed by Schroder Property Managers (Jersey) Limited.

Jersey Property Unit Trusts of this nature have a number of tax features that make them attractive – the rent Labour pays goes to Jersey. What did Corbyn say about people who send money offshore?

They are hypocrites the lot of them.

clapham_gull · Nov 6, 2017

bashlsdir said:
They are hypocrites the lot of them.

Tax evasion extends to what your Landlord does with your rent..?

Sent from my LG-K520 using Tapatalk

Bozza · Nov 6, 2017

Weststander said:
This.

The Queen, the wealthy and celebs are portrayed as THE tax avoiding pariahs, by many individuals all the way down the food chain who are minimising their own tax illegally by tax evasion, or lower level avoidance measures.

I think it's like bad driving. No one is a bad driver themself, it's just all the others on the road.

larus · Nov 6, 2017

Westdene Seagull said:
Nothing any of these individuals or organisations have done is illegal. Immoral possibly. If governments cracked down on tax loopholes then the whole problem would go away. Of course governments don't because it's the government individuals and their mates that benefit from the loopholes and that covers ALL political parties !

Actually, Lord Ashcroft has (if the accusations are correct).

The rules of Trusts are that the Trustees must manage it, but it looked highly likely that he was managing his own affairs but claiming the tax benefits of the Trust status.

If he has done, then he needs to be fined heavily and the back taxes paid. We're talking 10's of millions here. I reckon this is the tip of the iceberg.

What I don't get is why don't the major nations get together and say all tax havens are pariah states. No dealings with them. No financial institution is allowed to deal with them. Close them down completely. The developed world is struggling to raise tax revenues so is screwing the middle/working classes. The benefit to the governments from tax rates of 40% -> 50% is marginal.

But, we all know why they won't - as they get looked after very nicely when the retire etc. And I am a free market, low tax, small government supporting person.

edna krabappel · Nov 6, 2017

Playing devil's advocate here, where would we stand if it was revealed that, say, Tony Bloom, or other members of the Albion board had offshored a load of money in this way?

This is not an accusation, by the way: merely a "what if?" scenario

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[News] What SECRETS do the PARADISE Papers hold ?

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