catalonia independence vote......

Simster said:

Yes, yes, I've already agreed with that. It's also "interesting" that you haven't said a word on the fact that Catalonia overwhelmingly wishes to stay in the EU. The point is that you little Englanders want to make this incident all about the EU because it suits your agenda. It's got nothing to do with the EU in reality.

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It has nothing directly to do with the EU, I never suggested that it did. But after the fact the behavior of the EU is still noteworthy to me.

I get the impression that some people think that the EU is the defender of people. I've been getting the impression that people feel that the EU will protect their rights from national government overreach etc. The EU will protect itself above all else, even at the expense of peoples rights if neccessary. I already knew that but it's worth pointing out to those who haven't noticed, in my opinion.

dingodan said:

It has nothing directly to do with the EU, I never suggested that it did. But after the fact the behavior of the EU is still noteworthy to me.

I get the impression that some people think that the EU is the defender of people. I've been getting the impression that people feel that the EU will protect their rights from national government overreach etc. The EU will protect itself above all else, even at the expense of peoples rights if neccessary. I already knew that but it's worth pointing out to those who haven't noticed, in my opinion.

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This is just drivel really and the EU is so irrelevant to this issue that EU discussion on this thread should be barely noticeable - and it wouldn't be if you little Englanders weren't on the lookout for every little stick to beat the EU with. EU hypocrisy is undoubtedly there over this issue, but it's no worse than from the US amongst others. The issue in hand is why Spain doesn't allow it's regions more autonomy.

Simster said:

This is just drivel really and the EU is so irrelevant to this issue that EU discussion on this thread should be barely noticeable - and it wouldn't be if you little Englanders weren't on the lookout for every little stick to beat the EU with. EU hypocrisy is undoubtedly there over this issue, but it's no worse than from the US amongst others. The issue in hand is why Spain doesn't allow it's regions more autonomy.

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Well we are still very much in a situation were there seems to be confusion about whether the EU is a progressive defender of peoples rights or not. I think this situation speaks to that. I get that you don't like hearing that it might not be, sorry about that.

Thanks for calling me a "Little Englander" with an "Agenda", talking "Drivel" though. The fact is I just care about peoples rights too. I'll refrain from insulting you and calling you names though, if you could do the same that would be nice.

Simster said:

I don't dispute any of that, but it was obvious they were going to remain silent on this issue. It's a situation that is the last thing a federalist EU wants. If you Brexit people are going to rant on and on about the EU being hypocrites, you may want to balance that with the fact that Catalonians overwhelmingly wish to stay in the EU regardless of whether or not they break from Spain. That seems to be something none of you want to discuss. Funny that.

As I say, the real issue is not the EU's position on state brutality or lack of democracy (you might want to take a look at some of the disgusting regimes supported by western powers, including the EU, UK, US for more examples of breathtaking international hypocrisy), it is the Spanish state's appalling contempt for the democracy of it's regions, which are tantamount to nations. They need a voice and they haven't got one.

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If you read my post #75, I have already touched on this issue.

The problem for Catalan is that, if they leave Spain and become an independent state, they have to apply for EU membership. This will in all probability be blocked by Spain. It has already been made clear by the EU (during the Scottish vote) that any country which secedes from an existing member state dose not get automatic membership and has to apply.

This raised another big question for Catalan - what does it do for a currency when outside of the EU?

Colonel Angus said:

Completely pointless process. They would be nothing without Cerys Matthews.

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That Catalonia, it's all over the front page.

Simster said:

Yes, yes, I've already agreed with that. It's also "interesting" that you haven't said a word on the fact that Catalonia overwhelmingly wishes to stay in the EU. The point is that you little Englanders want to make this incident all about the EU because it suits your agenda. It's got nothing to do with the EU in reality.

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Disliking the EU does not make anyone a Little Englander. I think you know that because it has been done to death on the Brexit thread.It is still worth pointing out though that you don't enhance your case with childish insults. Whether or not Catalans wish to remain in the EU is neither here nor there. It is a matter for them and them alone as is their choice of constitution. The point being made on here is simply the hypocrisy of condemnation of politically inspired police brutality in Moscow and silence when it is happening within the EU. You have acknowledged that point but unfortunately you are unable to see it in any other context than whether or not the Catalan people are pro or anti EU. I would think that an elderly lady with her face smashed in by Fascist storm troopers wouldn't care much either way about the EU at the moment.

The Brexit thread crowd seem to have migrated over here. I make it something like 17 of the last 19 posts mention the Dick Darstardly EU. This issue is nothing to do with them, it's all to do with the Catalans. Yes, maybe they could say some words, but that isn't the issue here. But hey, never miss a a chance to muddy the waters

Weststander said:

Will mouthy Juncker and Schulz have anything to say about the one-sided gratuitous violence? Probably not.

So much for the supremacy of european law and justice.

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There are 2 things that the EU is deliberately designed to suppress........freedom and democracy.

No surprise that they are siding with government in Madrid.

Hampster Gull said:

The Brexit thread crowd seem to have migrated over here. I make it something like 17 of the last 19 posts mention the Dick Darstardly EU. This issue is nothing to do with them, it's all to do with the Catalans. Yes, maybe they could say some words, but that isn't the issue here. But hey, never miss a a chance to muddy the waters

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That may be a good point. Any chance of repeating it on the myriad of political and non political threads where Brexit and it's supporters are blamed for a myriad of unconnected ills?

After all, fair's fair.

Green Cross Code Man said:

That may be a good point. Any chance of repeating it on the myriad of political and non political threads where Brexit and it's supporters are blamed for a myriad of unconnected ills?

After all, fair's fair.

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I know, I know. What the EU have done in Catalonia is a disgrace. No wonder the people are rising up.

Off to Barcelona on Thursday... will be interesting.

Mates flight originally with Ryanair (cancelled), rebooked another with Monarch (cancelled). Starting to turn into a bit of a disaster

Hampster Gull said:

I know, I know. What the EU have done in Catalonia is a disgrace. No wonder the people are rising up.

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No one, well at least no one sane, is blaming the EU for the lack of wisdom of the Spanish government.

And well done for missing the point completely.

Foolg said:

Off to Barcelona on Thursday... will be interesting.

Mates flight originally with Ryanair (cancelled), rebooked another with Monarch (cancelled). Starting to turn into a bit of a disaster

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erm... reckon the gods are trying to tell you something.

beorhthelm said:

erm... reckon the gods are trying to tell you something.

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Oh I'm alright, Vueling for me.

My mate on the other hand..

Green Cross Code Man said:

No one, well at least no one sane, is blaming the EU for the lack of wisdom of the Spanish government.

And well done for missing the point completely.

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Brexit will sort it to be fair

Hampster Gull said:

Brexit will sort it to be fair

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Let's hope the Catalans don't turn to force

Seems as if the Spanish King is quiet happy that 800 of his subjects were attacked by his Government's uniformed thugs. No surprise really as Franco nominated the King's father and thus the family as his successor.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014

An international delegation of observers were present for the referendum, this is their joint statement.

Statement by the International Parliamentary Delegation on Catalonia’s Referendum on Self-Determination Oct. 1st 2017

Opening Remarks

We were impressed and reassured by the patient, determined and non-violent behaviour of the huge number of people who came out to vote across Catalonia.

As a Parliamentary Delegation we wish to express abhorrence at:

(a) The violence of the Spanish State that brought about more than 800 individuals being injured.

(b) The electronic sabotage deployed against the democratic vote.

(c) The removal of ballot boxes by Spanish State Forces.

We would like to express our admiration for scrupulous and professional work of polling staff across Catalonia in the face of real and significant problems and pressures.

Participation Process

We are a cross party delegation of present and former Parliamentarians from Europe and other countries. We have been asked by the Public Diplomacy Council of Catalonia to observe the Referendum on Self-Determination and to report to the interested public on the process.
In following these instructions we applied the Code of conduct for international election observers.
On the day of the referendum – naturally aware of tensions between the Catalonian initiative and the Spanish authorities – we visited several polling stations where we observed a great number of citizens expecting to vote.
The delegation was treated with respect and enjoyed co-operation with all those involved in the process. We had the freedom to travel and interrogate as we saw fit and experienced no coercion or direction. We were able to meet participants from all sides of the debate. We were also able to interact with the media at all times.
We can make no comment on the polls which took place abroad, as we did not observe them.
The Referendum of October 1, has been conducted under challenging circumstances, and we believe it has achieved – regardless of the controversy and pain caused – a success.

Main Findings

As far as the organization of the polling stations is concerned, we found that the process was prepared thoroughly and in agreement with the existing legislation of the Kingdom of Spain.
Regardless of this context, the activities of the polling stations were threatened and obstructed by outside intervention consisting of electronic and physical disturbance including the use of violence by the Spanish state police.
In most cases, the election-personnel was forced to abandon the prepared plan of voting with the help of electronic devices, and had to resort to traditional voting rolls. The voting procedure was thus essentially prolonged.
More threatening were the physical interventions by the Spanish State Police that could, in some cases be defined as brutal, and in most cases as breaches of human rights and civil liberties.
The referendum was a demonstration of the determination of the Catalonian people, as far as the right to vote and democratic process were concerned. It meant a successful political mobilization of the Catalonian nation. The results of the referendum will have to be taken into account by the international community generally, especially by European Union, Council of Europe, and the Spanish authorities.

Strengths

The process was conducted in a positive, peaceful and friendly atmosphere despite provocation.
The process was conducted in an efficient manner by a large number of volunteers selected following democratic procedures.
There was an adequate number of ballot boxes for the process – except in the cases when they were confiscated by the Spanish State police.
Adequate steps were taken to ensure that only registered electors could cast their vote and that all reasonable steps were taken to prevent double voting.
The democratic process was threatened, but it was not destroyed. The people of Catalonia defended their right to vote with great courage and integrity.

Weaknesses

Main problems of the referendum were the legal limitations of and political threats to the referendum-personnel including the central Electoral Commission and confiscation of casted votes by the Spanish police.
The need to switch from electronic to classical paper documentation did not help the efficient referendum process.
[We observed difficulties of ensuring the secrecy of the vote as in many places there were no voting booths.]

Final remarks

The Spanish Government should not have resorted to violence breaking the basic principles of Human Rights as established in international documents signed and ratified by the Kingdom of Spain.
Although the Generalitat on several occasions publicly declared its willingness to negotiate in legal and amicable manner the future institutional arrangement of Catalonia, we regret that the Spanish Government refused to negotiate with them.
We would hope that, in the near future, the Spanish Government will enter into genuine negotiations with the Catalans.
Finally we consider it regrettable that the European Union, the Council of Europe and other international organisations have not acted to mediate with the purpose to facilitate an agreed solution, acceptable for both parties.

Barcelona, October 1st 2017



Former Slovenian Foreign Affairs Minister Dimitrij RUPEL / Slovenia (Slovenian Democratic Party S&D)-Spokesperson
MEP Mark DEMESMAEKER / Belgium (New-Flemish Alliance ECR Group)
MP Peter LUYKX / Belgium (New-Flemish Alliance ECR Group)
MEP Helga STEVENS / Belgium (New-Flemish Alliance ECR Group)
MP Alex AHRENDTSEN / Denmark (Danish People’s Party ECR)
MP Magni ARGE / Denmark (Member of the Faroe Islands Committee)
MP Lars ASLAN RASMUSEN / Denmark (Socialdemokraterne S&D)
MP Pelle DRAGSTED / Denmark (Enhedslisten)
MP Rasmus NORDQVIST / Denmark (Alternativet)
MP Artur TALVIK / Estonia (Vabaerakond – Free Party)
MP Simon ELO / Finland (Blue Parliamentary Group ECR)
MP Heli Maria JÄRVINEN / Finland (Vihreät – Green League Greens/EFA)
Assembly Bureau President of the Conseil Régional Occitanie / Pyrénées-Méditerranée Gerard ONESTA / France (Europe Écologie Les Verts Greens/EFA)
MP Andrej HUNKO / Germany (Die Linke GUE/NGL)
MEP Stylianos KOULOGLOU / Greece (Syriza GUE/NGL)
MP Birgitta JÓNSDÓTTIR / Iceland (Pirate Party)
MP Mick BARRY / Ireland (Socialist Party GUE/NGL)
MEP Martina ANDERSON / Ireland (Sinn Féin GUE/NGL)
MEP Lynn BOYLAN / Ireland (Sinn Féin GUE/NGL)
MP Eoin Ó BROIN / Ireland (Sinn Féinn GUE/NGL)
Senator Trevor Ó CLOCHARTAIGH / Ireland (Sinn Féin GUE/NGL)
MP Ksenia SVETLOVA / Israel (Liberal/Labour – Zionist Union)
MP Veiko SPOLITIS / Latvia (Independent – Former Vienotība)
Former State Secretary Emil KIRJAS / F.Y.R. Macedonia (Liberal International)
Member National CouncilAlain Victor Raymond FICINI / Monaco (HM Horizon Monaco)
MEP Josu JUARISTI ABAUNZ / Spain (EH Bildu GUE/NGL)
MEP María Lidia SENRA RODRÍGUEZ / Spain (Alternativa Galega de Esquerdas – Izquierda Unida GUE/NGL)
MEP Bodil VALERO / Sweden (Miljöpartiet de gröna Greens/EFA)
MP Joanna CHERRY / UK (Scottish National Party Greens/EFA)
MP Douglas CHAPMAN / UK (Scottish National Party Greens/EFA)
MEP Jill EVANS / UK (Plaid Cymru – The party of Wales Greens/EFA)
MP Lord RENNARD / UK (Liberal Democrat Party ALDE)
MP Hywel WILLIAMS / UK (Plaid Cymru – The party of Wales Greens/EFA)

http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/sta...eferendum-on-self-determination-oct-1st-2017/

JC Footy Genius said:

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Is this clown still going to Brussels Has his German wife left him yet? And wasn't he living in the USA post the referendum. Another elite financier.