Interesting debate re free kicks and player walls

Giraffe · Aug 18, 2017

If there is no wall where do the defenders stand? They have to presumably pick up the attackers, who if clever will just stand in the way anyway. Surely you just end up with a load of people in the way of the goalkeepers sight regardless?

Commander · Aug 18, 2017

hans kraay fan club said:
For sure.

But conversely the standard of the keepers would be much better too.

Which is why I added my 'regardless of who the keeper is' caveat.

Stat Brother · Aug 18, 2017

https://audioboom.com/posts/6213828...s-and-spurs-look-to-end-their-wembley-wobbles

Walls from 15:30

A short snippet on Maty @ 37:57

Stat Brother · Aug 18, 2017

Giraffe said:
If there is no wall where do the defenders stand? They have to presumably pick up the attackers, who if clever will just stand in the way anyway. Surely you just end up with a load of people in the way of the goalkeepers sight regardless?

The point is nobody has tried it.
How free kicks have been taken, walls etc, have been the football equivalent Pavlov dogs for 60 odd years.

What if we only put the little players in the wall.
Good for us, we could have a massive low wall, although that could be counter intuitive as Ryan would be one of them... (come on people it's funny)
Bad for Utd as all their players are over 7 ft tall.

Gazwag · Aug 18, 2017

Stat Brother said:
What if all the defenders lined up on halfway? Not sure If I should use a or not?

The free kick taker would just pass it back to his striker who would run on unopposed towards goal

beorhthelm · Aug 18, 2017

hans kraay fan club said:
For sure.

But conversely the standard of the keepers would be much better too.

true, but top level free kick takers are able to hit the ball with more pace than top keepers are going to be able to get across. unless perhaps one goes with no wall and takes position in the middle? i can see your point about having a smaller wall, though in top flight 30m is shirley a dangerous distance?

Brightonfan1983 · Aug 18, 2017

Kalimantan Gull said:
I can see a lot of merit in that argument. Of course what would happen in reality is that at some point a player would put his foot through one and it would fly straight in right through where the wall would have been, and the team would be crucified for being stupid. And that would be the end of that.

I remember Beckham doing just that. Can't remember who Man U were playing, but it was a definite strategy of "well we've got to let our keeper see as much as possible".

symyjym · Aug 18, 2017

Thinking out of the box; You could put 4 or 5 players on the goal line and bring the goalkeeper out to stand in the normal wall position 10 yards from the kicker. The goalkeeper would make a better wall by himself because he can use his hands. If they manage to get a shot past him you would still have 4 or 5 players on the goal line.

Make sense?

hans kraay fan club · Aug 18, 2017

symyjym said:
Thinking out of the box; You could put 4 or 5 players on the goal line and bring the goalkeeper out to stand in the normal wall position 10 yards from the kicker. The goalkeeper would make a better wall by himself because he can use his hands. If they manage to get a shot past him you would still have 4 or 5 players on the goal line.

Make sense?

Not if the kick is 30 yards from goal! (at 10 yards away he'd be handballing it).

Stat Brother · Aug 18, 2017

hans kraay fan club said:
Not if the kick is 30 yards from goal! (at 10 yards away he'd be handballing it).

Thereby moving the free kick into a position where he can handle the ball from the resulting free kick, all at the expense of a yellow card.
Come on man think about it. :lolol:

Stat Brother · Aug 18, 2017

Anyway before I get too silly.

I'm liking the idea of not doing what the attacker wants when it comes to kicks closer to goal.

It does make sense:-

'I'm going to train for a very specific situation'.
'We are going to exactly replicate the specific situation you have been practising to beat'.

Although the options are clearly very limited.
The better the taker gets, esp if you're going to give the very best multiple chances, you know at some point you'll be conceding a goal.

symyjym · Aug 18, 2017

hans kraay fan club said:
Not if the kick is 30 yards from goal! (at 10 yards away he'd be handballing it).

Clearly from 30 yards it would be a problem but from 20-22 yards, the ones we tend to give away it might work. It would have to be tested though. It might just put the opposition off a long shot and they take it short instead, but you work out a system to deal with that too.

beorhthelm · Aug 18, 2017

symyjym said:
Thinking out of the box; You could put 4 or 5 players on the goal line and bring the goalkeeper out to stand in the normal wall position 10 yards from the kicker. The goalkeeper would make a better wall by himself because he can use his hands. If they manage to get a shot past him you would still have 4 or 5 players on the goal line.

Make sense?

yes, (keeper positioning needs to be in the box obviously) wonder why teams haven't at least tried it. would certainly confuse attackers the first couple of times, and help defend against second ball.

Simster · Aug 18, 2017

From 18-20 yards, you have no choice - a wall absolutely has to be in place and probably shouldn't jump. It is incredibly difficult to dip a shot over a wall and down again from that range, whereas no wall at all and any pro player is within range of just putting his foot through it.

From 30 yards out, it surely depends on the free kick taker at the disposal of the attacking side. On balance, unless you're up against Roberto Carlos I would suggest a wall wasn't necessarily a good decision.

So that middle range? Well I can't really believe there aren't technical managers out there who haven't examined this in detail during training. It seems the pervading thought is "make him play it". The problem is, the minute a goal goes in from 25 yards, one of those ex-pro tits absolutely STEALING a living, like Paul Merson or Alan Shearer, will cry "why on earth wasn't there a wall in place?", even if it was Cristiano Ronaldo who scored it, and would have done so regardless of defensive set up.

Marshy · Aug 18, 2017

Nothing stopping the attacking side making a wall though and lets say only 7 yards away blocking the keepers view...if thats what a defensive wall is doing.

plenty of free kicks go into the wall in my opinion to warrant one.

symyjym · Aug 18, 2017

beorhthelm said:
yes, (keeper positioning needs to be in the box obviously) wonder why teams haven't at least tried it. would certainly confuse attackers the first couple of times, and help defend against second ball.

I don't know if anyone has even thought about it to actually see if it works or not. If I was part of a football team I would try it in practice to see if it gives an advantage or takes it away. That I really don't know.

sully · Aug 18, 2017

Stat Brother said:
As an aside Danny Blanchflower's Ireland was the first team to have a wall, while playing a superior Italy in the 1940's.

So what used to happen before then?

Stat Brother · Aug 18, 2017

sully said:
So what used to happen before then?

According to the clip, a wall wasn't deemed sporting.
But Italy, at the time, were a class apart and DBF thought 'we've got to do something'.

I'm gonna have a rummage around google and see what's about, so some links might appear here in a bit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/sports/soccer/soccers-not-so-great-wall-to-defend-free-kicks.html
Instead of using three to six players to cover the near-side part of the goal, Milutinovic broke his players into two miniwalls, one on each side of the goal. The goalkeeper stood in the middle.
That arrangement made it harder for shooters to score the traditional free-kick goal, a twisting shot like Luton Shelton’s game-winning laser for Jamaica on Friday night. The problem with leaving a gap in the middle, however, was that attackers stood in the vacated space, nullifying the primary advantage for the goalkeeper, which was a better line of sight.

“It was a good idea in practice, because the hardest part for a goalkeeper is that you often can’t see the ball with all the bodies in front of you,” Meola said. “But once we put another team out there, it all fell apart and we went back to the old way.”

An interesting pregame diversion, (who'd have thunk it football being discussed on NSC) but sadly one I think can be summed up by the phrase above:-

It was a good idea in practice

Nixonator · Aug 18, 2017

Someone like Mihajlovic would be rubbing his hands together at the thought of dispensing with walls, then again you don't see many 'specialists' in the modern day, which has turned into 'punt it on the valve'.

[tweet]889914055829454849[/tweet]

dazzer6666 · Aug 18, 2017

beorhthelm said:
yes, (keeper positioning needs to be in the box obviously) wonder why teams haven't at least tried it. would certainly confuse attackers the first couple of times, and help defend against second ball.

Without a wall, wouldn't be many second balls ?

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Interesting debate re free kicks and player walls

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