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Goodbye Goldstone Meridian Debate Video



Got back after yesterdays game and after watching MOTD I ended up doing a bit of Albion You tube binging and stumbled upon this gem of a video. The meridian debate from 1997 goodbye goldstone.

https://youtu.be/0mG-o6-S7uE

As a fan of Albion since going to watch the Mansfield game aged 11 at the Withdean I am aware only second hand of the decade preceeding this and found this an interesting opportunity to hear the debate at the time first hand from the fans formerly and currently of our parish, as well as Andy Naylor, Mark Lawro Lawrensen, Alan Mullery, and those scum bags Archer and Bellotti. Puts what happens yesterday in real perspective not that many will need reminding.

What particularly always struck me reading build a bonfire etc. was the apathy of the FA. Shown in full light by Graham Kelly here.

It makes me wonder what Archer and Bellotti would have thought of yesterday's game?



Not a great programme tbf the fans got a bit stitched up by the TV people if I remember right.
 


symyjym

Banned
Nov 2, 2009
13,138
Brighton / Hove actually
I think Archer got off fairly lightly. All of the above is fair game when you threaten a Counties football team through greed. He knowingly tried to destroy our club and every piece of abuse and every threat was completely warranted.

My only interest in this is what the actual alternatives were, not the personal conflict.
 


bWize

Well-known member
Nov 6, 2007
1,676
Not a great programme tbf the fans got a bit stitched up by the TV people if I remember right.

Found it Interesting that Mark Lawrenson was on there and clearly knows the ins and outs of Albion's plight, yet these days distances himself and doesn't even seem to really acknowledge Brighton. (Is the feeling I get anyway) Maybe he still resents Mullery threatening to run him over...

Was good to see the late John Vinnicombe and Tony Millard speaking up in the audience as-well. Used to religiously read Vinnicombe's Argus reports as a nipper.
 
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symyjym

Banned
Nov 2, 2009
13,138
Brighton / Hove actually
Woah tiger! Archer was a psychopath. Money was his bottom line. Yes, if all the stars had lind up he would have taken us to a new stadium and glory. But he had not bothered to work out a plan, because he owned the site and there was money to be made, so why bother? Geddit?

Archer was never fit to own a dog let alone a football club.

I don't need to be reminded that Archer was not liked :) I just want to know what the alternatives were with the club being wound up if it didn't pay the £6m and with a stadium that needed millions spent to upgrade it to league standard temporarily until we found a new home. Any money put into the Goldstone would have been millions wasted.
 


colinz

Banned
Oct 17, 2010
862
Auckland
I don't need to be reminded that Archer was not liked :) I just want to know what the alternatives were with the club being wound up if it didn't pay the £6m and with a stadium that needed millions spent to upgrade it to league standard temporarily until we found a new home. Any money put into the Goldstone would have been millions wasted.

The articles of association were surreptitiously wiped. This in itself is proof that it was intended to sell the Goldstone behind the backs of every one else at the club.

What needs to be known is how much it would have cost to service the debt at market rates. Not the high interest rates Archer & co were charging.

Once news had broken about the ground being sold because the article of association had been changed, Archer needed to sell the Ground ASAP. So it suited him that the club got bad results and was subsequently run into the ground, because it meant the club was unable to trade it's way out of debt.

It wouldn't be surprising if Archer had contacts/ ties with Chartwell who bought the ground. Because It doesn't appear that any other buyers were given a chance to purchase the ground, which is a bit strange given that about a year or so later Chartwell on sold it for 20+ mill.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/how-have-brighton-gone-from-this-to-this-1307552.html
 




stewart_weir

Well-known member
Mar 19, 2017
1,000
The articles of association were surreptitiously wiped. This in itself is proof that it was intended to sell the Goldstone behind the backs of every one else at the club.

What needs to be known is how much it would have cost to service the debt at market rates. Not the high interest rates Archer & co were charging.

Once news had broken about the ground being sold because the article of association had been changed, Archer needed to sell the Ground ASAP. So it suited him that the club got bad results and was subsequently run into the ground, because it meant the club was unable to trade it's way out of debt.

It wouldn't be surprising if Archer had contacts/ ties with Chartwell who bought the ground. Because It doesn't appear that any other buyers were given a chance to purchase the ground, which is a bit strange given that about a year or so later Chartwell on sold it for 20+ mill.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/how-have-brighton-gone-from-this-to-this-1307552.html

There's no doubt Archer etc. was on a mission to extract what he could from the club. If anyone doubts that then read some history. The club and fans were stitched up. The real question is where would we be today had the Goldstone been refurbished? It all turned out ok in the end and perhaps dare I say it was a blessing in disguise?
 


colinz

Banned
Oct 17, 2010
862
Auckland
There's no doubt Archer etc. was on a mission to extract what he could from the club. If anyone doubts that then read some history. The club and fans were stitched up. The real question is where would we be today had the Goldstone been refurbished? It all turned out ok in the end and perhaps dare I say it was a blessing in disguise?

How would things have turned out without Bloom's millions ?
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,341
Faversham
There's no doubt Archer etc. was on a mission to extract what he could from the club. If anyone doubts that then read some history. The club and fans were stitched up. The real question is where would we be today had the Goldstone been refurbished? It all turned out ok in the end and perhaps dare I say it was a blessing in disguise?

I don't like this thread. The fact that the Amex is miles better than the Goldstone, and that we may have been hamstrung had we not moved is hardly the point. The club was raped by Archer. That is never acceptable. The outcome was traumatic, and my guess is he trousered a good part of 13 million profit in the sell on. But things are what they are The musings are a tad distasteful given all the trauma the club and supporters have been through. I am grateful we now appear to have a settled existence and a semblance of hope for the future. Here is an analogy for the Goldstone to Amex journey; Jonnie Peacock is now a fabulous successful paralympic champion, but I doubt that he regards the meningitis that lost him a leg a 'blessing in disguise'.
 




ROSM

Well-known member
Dec 26, 2005
6,180
Just far enough away from LDC
I don't need to be reminded that Archer was not liked :) I just want to know what the alternatives were with the club being wound up if it didn't pay the £6m and with a stadium that needed millions spent to upgrade it to league standard temporarily until we found a new home. Any money put into the Goldstone would have been millions wasted.

So the total club debt at the sale of the goldstone was actually 4.8m most of which was a mortgage on the ground with barclays for 4m.

The mortgage was being serviced anx only became called in once the ground was sold. Just as your mortgage would have been if you sold your house.

The remaining debt was a loan to the stanley family trust. One trustee of which was bill archer.

This loan was going to incur interest. And eventually rise to 1.2m purely on fees and interest

So in short, no the ground didnt need to be sold.

Interestingly after the ground was sold the debt rose to nearly 6.7m and then eventually the whole 8m went.....

So the other 1.9m of debt - where did that come from and why wasnt it on the books in 95?

Now, what could the club have done. Some options;

- sell the ground at the market rate (nearer 11m) or develop it themselves and take the profit (much like the club are now doing with lancing)

- use equity as there was a min of 3m even at lower land sale rate to leverage new ground and move once developed

- look at onsight development options. Hove council had been discussing moving the ground round and buying up land behind the south stand and over the road from the west.

Prelim views indicated a 25k stadium with some standing or 22k all seater

I still think a move to new stadium was the best option but lets not believe archer had no other choices
 


Surf's Up

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2011
10,147
Here
Archer - what a complete and utter

IMG_1327.JPG
 


symyjym

Banned
Nov 2, 2009
13,138
Brighton / Hove actually
I don't like this thread. The fact that the Amex is miles better than the Goldstone, and that we may have been hamstrung had we not moved is hardly the point. The club was raped by Archer. That is never acceptable. The outcome was traumatic, and my guess is he trousered a good part of 13 million profit in the sell on. But things are what they are The musings are a tad distasteful given all the trauma the club and supporters have been through. I am grateful we now appear to have a settled existence and a semblance of hope for the future. Here is an analogy for the Goldstone to Amex journey; Jonnie Peacock is now a fabulous successful paralympic champion, but I doubt that he regards the meningitis that lost him a leg a 'blessing in disguise'.

That's the exact point. If he had got Toads Hall or Waterhall that would have been the money he would have had to have used towards a new stadium. He didn't have the backing of fans to get a new stadium though, we wanted him out so he left with the profit. Was this his intention or was it a self fulfilled prophecy due to the angst? Everyone was against him so finding a new site when he was at the helm would have made it impossible. He of course had to go at this point.

If we are saying that it was an intentional plan to run off with the loot, why would he have fought to keep a club that he had already robbed, and was worth nothing. The perfect crime would have been to just give the club to Knight because the crime had already been committed. To stay at a place you have robbed would be the work of a very stupid conman surely?
 




Jam The Man

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
8,110
South East North Lancing
That's the exact point. If he had got Toads Hall or Waterhall that would have been the money he would have had to have used towards a new stadium. He didn't have the backing of fans to get a new stadium though, we wanted him out so he left with the profit. Was this his intention or was it a self fulfilled prophecy due to the angst? Everyone was against him so finding a new site when he was at the helm would have made it impossible. He of course had to go at this point.

If we are saying that it was an intentional plan to run off with the loot, why would he have fought to keep a club that he had already robbed, and was worth nothing. The perfect crime would have been to just give the club to Knight because the crime had already been committed. To stay at a place you have robbed would be the work of a very stupid conman surely?

Out of curiosity, have you read 'Build a Bonfire'?
 


symyjym

Banned
Nov 2, 2009
13,138
Brighton / Hove actually
So the total club debt at the sale of the goldstone was actually 4.8m most of which was a mortgage on the ground with barclays for 4m.

The mortgage was being serviced anx only became called in once the ground was sold. Just as your mortgage would have been if you sold your house.

The remaining debt was a loan to the stanley family trust. One trustee of which was bill archer.

This loan was going to incur interest. And eventually rise to 1.2m purely on fees and interest

So in short, no the ground didnt need to be sold.

Interestingly after the ground was sold the debt rose to nearly 6.7m and then eventually the whole 8m went.....

So the other 1.9m of debt - where did that come from and why wasnt it on the books in 95?

Now, what could the club have done. Some options;

- sell the ground at the market rate (nearer 11m) or develop it themselves and take the profit (much like the club are now doing with lancing)

- use equity as there was a min of 3m even at lower land sale rate to leverage new ground and move once developed

- look at onsight development options. Hove council had been discussing moving the ground round and buying up land behind the south stand and over the road from the west.

Prelim views indicated a 25k stadium with some standing or 22k all seater

I still think a move to new stadium was the best option but lets not believe archer had no other choices


Whatever the actual debt was we were under pressure to pay the £millions that season. I can't remember exactly how it went but he sold it to himself to cover the immediate debt. That would have given him time to sell it to the highest bidder on the market so when he sold it and made a profit of say £13m, that would have given him enough money to spend on a new stadium at a new site. Riverside Stadium cost £16.m in 1995.

The Goldstone Ground back in the day when all standing was great, but the East Stand made it impossible long term. To have actually continued usage of it, all stands would have had to have been demolished and the Withdean seating setup without roofs would have been the only temporary solution. So if that was an option we would have still had to have raised the debt money to stop a winding up order, plus basic refurbishment to league requirements totalled could have cost £10m, so we still would have had to raise £10m. £10m back in 97 would be like £50m in today's money or even more.
 


bobby baxter

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2014
719
That's the exact point. If he had got Toads Hall or Waterhall that would have been the money he would have had to have used towards a new stadium. He didn't have the backing of fans to get a new stadium though, we wanted him out so he left with the profit. Was this his intention or was it a self fulfilled prophecy due to the angst? Everyone was against him so finding a new site when he was at the helm would have made it impossible. He of course had to go at this point.

If we are saying that it was an intentional plan to run off with the loot, why would he have fought to keep a club that he had already robbed, and was worth nothing. The perfect crime would have been to just give the club to Knight because the crime had already been committed. To stay at a place you have robbed would be the work of a very stupid conman surely?

Archer put forward the creation of a stadium at either Toads Hall or Waterhall despite knowing that there wasnt a snowball in hells chance of building a stadium at those locations.

Greg Stanley was a business colleague of Archers, during Stanleys tenure as Chairman of the Albion, he allowed the Goldstone to deteriorate ensuring attendances fell, failed to invest in playing staff whilst allowing the club to plummet down the leagues, whilst loaning money to the club at a high rate of interest.

Archer and Stanleys only interest in the club was as a money making investment
 






symyjym

Banned
Nov 2, 2009
13,138
Brighton / Hove actually
Archer put forward the creation of a stadium at either Toads Hall or Waterhall despite knowing that there wasnt a snowball in hells chance of building a stadium at those locations.

Greg Stanley was a business colleague of Archers, during Stanleys tenure as Chairman of the Albion, he allowed the Goldstone to deteriorate ensuring attendances fell, failed to invest in playing staff whilst allowing the club to plummet down the leagues, whilst loaning money to the club at a high rate of interest.

Archer and Stanleys only interest in the club was as a money making investment

We don't know if he knew he would never get Waterhall or Toads Hall and it was all just a distraction ploy to fool everyone. That is just a subjective claim. He may have just had a good gut feeling that Waterhall was the perfect place, which it was.

The Goldstone ground could not be maintained. Not only was it past it's sell by date, the league standard was raised significantly. Maybve there was no money for him to invest in players and staff. At the time all football clubs, apart from the top clubs, were financial black holes. No one wanted to or could afford to invest in them.
 


Jam The Man

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
8,110
South East North Lancing
No. I know the story as the story was written in the news at the time and since. Just like I know Dick Knights story without buying his book Mad Man, or even reading Blooms future book..


Ok. I just asked as I feel you might possibly give yourself a fuller picture about the deviant work that Archer and Bellotti were up to if you get yourself a copy and have a read.
There's always, always, always far more to what you might read in a newspaper or watch on the TV. And the 'Goodbye Goldstone' show did very little to explain the true extent of what was really going on at the club.
 


Driver8

On the road...
NSC Patreon
Jul 31, 2005
15,951
North Wales
We don't know if he knew he would never get Waterhall or Toads Hall and it was all just a distraction ploy to fool everyone. That is just a subjective claim. He may have just had a good gut feeling that Waterhall was the perfect place, which it was.

The Goldstone ground could not be maintained. Not only was it past it's sell by date, the league standard was raised significantly. Maybve there was no money for him to invest in players and staff. At the time all football clubs, apart from the top clubs, were financial black holes. No one wanted to or could afford to invest in them.

Which begs the question why did Archer want to if it wasn’t to rape and pillage the club?
 




symyjym

Banned
Nov 2, 2009
13,138
Brighton / Hove actually
Ok. I just asked as I feel you might possibly give yourself a fuller picture about the deviant work that Archer and Bellotti were up to if you get yourself a copy and have a read.
There's always, always, always far more to what you might read in a newspaper or watch on the TV. And the 'Goodbye Goldstone' show did very little to explain the true extent of what was really going on at the club.

Does the book explain that after robbing the club of all it had, why he fought hard to keep it when there was no more money left to steal?
 


Jam The Man

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
8,110
South East North Lancing
Does the book explain that after robbing the club of all it had, why he fought hard to keep it when there was no more money left to steal?

Asset stripping continues in these circs right until the existence of the business is no more...The book will explain plenty for you.
I'm really struggling to understand how and why you are being so defensive of the actions those people took?
 



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