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Today's F1 Grand Prix on C4



Icy Gull

Back on the rollercoaster
Jul 5, 2003
72,015
They were never similar.

Seeing your quick edit, I don't recall that much overtaking back then either.

I go back to Jackie Ickx, Jackie Oliver, Graham Hill, Senna, Prost, Hunt. Lauda days. you are so wrong! Of course some cars were faster than others but the racing was much closer and much less predictable. Today's carnage was all that made the race unpredictable.
 






Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,985
Goldstone
I go back to Jackie Ickx, Jackie Oliver, Graham Hill, Senna, Prost, Hunt. Lauda days. you are so wrong! Of course some cars were faster than others but the racing was much closer and much less predictable.
So some cars were faster than others, but you said the cars were more similar. I go back to the late 70s. Part of the reason racing was exciting was because of the new found speed, the style, the personalities and it was more dangerous. But nostalgia is probably playing tricks on you, there wasn't that much overtaking with Senna or Prost.

How about this little beauty of a manoeuvre by Mansell overtaking Senna and a backmarker in Hungary.

When I made my post I even thought of that manoeuver (I haven't bothered to click play, I know what happened), which backs up my point - they were infrequent enough that we both think of the same one.
 






Icy Gull

Back on the rollercoaster
Jul 5, 2003
72,015
Again, we probably all remember that. So two overtaking manoeuvers in 2 years. That showed me.

Obviously those were the only two Formula One overtakes between 1989 and 1991, Sorry if I gave you the impression there may have been more. Must take off these rose tinteds
 


Guy Fawkes

The voice of treason
Sep 29, 2007
8,187
I go back to Jackie Ickx, Jackie Oliver, Graham Hill, Senna, Prost, Hunt. Lauda days. you are so wrong! Of course some cars were faster than others but the racing was much closer and much less predictable. Today's carnage was all that made the race unpredictable.

The aerodynamics of modern F1 cars must play a big part in the lack of overtaking, the speed at which they accelerate means that small driving mistakes go unpunished as there isn't enough time for the driver behind to capitalise before they have got back up to speed (DRS had to be brought in as an artificial means to create a speed difference and allow cars to have a chance to overtake)

It always feels that the cars are too big and accelerate way too fast on tracks that are too small, and too narrow, with only the true racing line offering a way around the track and this is what makes it a procession rather than a race
 


Sussex Nomad

Well-known member
Aug 26, 2010
18,185
EP
I go back to Jackie Ickx, Jackie Oliver, Graham Hill, Senna, Prost, Hunt. Lauda days. you are so wrong! Of course some cars were faster than others but the racing was much closer and much less predictable. Today's carnage was all that made the race unpredictable.

I have to agree with [MENTION=4019]Triggaaar[/MENTION] here. It was no different back then for an overtaking basis. It was different in so much as many people died. Some cars are still faster than others now, milliseconds faster, that make the difference between winners and losers. Teams could have 3 cars in a race and it was cheaper back then so you'd possibly have 40 cars per race all competing for their lives, literally. So, you had poor drivers causing accidents in a non H&S environment. The only thing different between Ickx and now is drivers die rarely. Did Ickx die in a car? I think he did, I haven't googled it. So, our romance with the past was the danger, not the overtaking.
 




Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,985
Goldstone
Obviously those were the only two Formula One overtakes between 1989 and 1991, Sorry if I gave you the impression there may have been more. Must take off these rose tinteds
And obviously there's only 1 overtake per year now too.
 


Icy Gull

Back on the rollercoaster
Jul 5, 2003
72,015
I have to agree with [MENTION=4019]Triggaaar[/MENTION] here. It was no different back then for an overtaking basis. It was different in so much as many people died. Some cars are still faster than others now, milliseconds faster, that make the difference between winners and losers. Teams could have 3 cars in a race and it was cheaper back then so you'd possibly have 40 cars per race all competing for their lives, literally. So, you had poor drivers causing accidents in a non H&S environment. The only thing different between Ickx and now is drivers die rarely. Did Ickx die in a car? I think he did, I haven't googled it. So, our romance with the past was the danger, not the overtaking.

Still alive and well

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/classic/jacky-ickx-star-london-classic-car-show/
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,985
Goldstone
the speed at which they accelerate means that small driving mistakes go unpunished as there isn't enough time for the driver behind to capitalise before they have got back up to speed
It may seem like that, but I think it may be other car improvements that stop little mistakes costing too much time. It's not the speed though, because the faster a car, the bigger difference a small mistake can make. And F1 cars don't just get back up to speed, they're constantly accelerating.

(DRS had to be brought in as an artificial means to create a speed difference and allow cars to have a chance to overtake)
Agreed, that's pretty lame. But I think that's because there's never been enough overtaking.

It always feels that the cars are too big and accelerate way too fast on tracks that are too small, and too narrow, with only the true racing line offering a way around the track and this is what makes it a procession rather than a race
I think that's been the case for decades.
 






Guy Fawkes

The voice of treason
Sep 29, 2007
8,187
Agreed, that's pretty lame. But I think that's because there's never been enough overtaking.

Formula E in it's first season seemed to have really close driving and lots of overtakes too, because cars could drive that much closer that they were able to take advantage of any mistakes whereas the exhaust emissions prevent this and mean F1 cars have to stay further back

That first season they had 1 manufacturer for all cars and it came down to driver ability as a factor in deciding results. The second season had individual teams as the manufacturers insead and, as i didn't see any races this time around, i don't know if that made a lot of difference or not to it's competitiveness.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,985
Goldstone
Formula E in it's first season seemed to have really close driving and lots of overtakes too, because cars could drive that much closer that they were able to take advantage of any mistakes whereas the exhaust emissions prevent this and mean F1 cars have to stay further back
Exhaust emissions? Do you mean the effect of the front car on the aerodynamics of the following car?
 










Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
2,921
Uckfield
I have to agree with [MENTION=4019]Triggaaar[/MENTION] here. It was no different back then for an overtaking basis. It was different in so much as many people died. Some cars are still faster than others now, milliseconds faster, that make the difference between winners and losers. Teams could have 3 cars in a race and it was cheaper back then so you'd possibly have 40 cars per race all competing for their lives, literally. So, you had poor drivers causing accidents in a non H&S environment. The only thing different between Ickx and now is drivers die rarely. Did Ickx die in a car? I think he did, I haven't googled it. So, our romance with the past was the danger, not the overtaking.

There was never 40 cars in a race. There were a few races here and there that may have had 40 entries at the start of the weekend, but the grid has always been capped at 26 cars. Whenever they had more than 26 enter, they had pre-qualifying sessions to weed out the slowest cars.

I also don't ever remember 3 car teams. 1 car teams were allowed, but two car teams have been the maximum for as long as I can remember watching (earliest F1 memories being Senna in a JPS Lotus).
 




Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,985
Goldstone
I also don't ever remember 3 car teams. 1 car teams were allowed, but two car teams have been the maximum for as long as I can remember watching (earliest F1 memories being Senna in a JPS Lotus).
The 2 car limit has been since the 80s I think. In the 70s teams sometimes had quite a few cars (more than 2 I'm sure).
 





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