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Should the voting age be raised?

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Grombleton

Surrounded by <div>s
Dec 31, 2011
7,356
Hang on pal i could still have another 40+ years on this planet, the over 50's are still very much alive, so yes it is still MY FUTURE also.


I was told to respect our elders i don't see a lot of that goes on nowadays, who knows one day we may get that culture back.

I'm sure they are alive and well, but it doesn't mean that they can be a dickpool and prevent someone younger having the right to vote.

Respect works both ways - respect the youth and they'll respect the elders. That's why Corbyn did well with the young voters - he talked *to* them, the Tories and the likes of you just talked down to them.
 




BrickTamland

Well-known member
Mar 2, 2010
1,968
Brighton
You answered your own rhetorical question. Youre right, the economy has grown considerably and one of the reasons why and a reason why unemployment is at historical lows is that companies pay less tax, that means more staff, less unemployment benefits, it means more businesses which means increasing economic output, investment by business, which in turn leads to increased VAT receipts. There is no question that if every business was charged 26p next week instead of 19p this week, then next week that would earn more money than this week, but it is also wrong to believe that the effects very quickly would not be a retraction in the economy, with less growth and less spending/less secondary VAT, less new business and certainly less foreign business which in turn effects growth, employment and tax receipts. You cannot take a 7p in the £ loss of profitability/tax hike in isolation. It has far reaching effects to business profitability which greatly affects the overall economy.

You cant set tax rates based on other countries, only on what will bring the best balance of growth and tax receipts in the UK

The reason why 19p brings in more now than 26p is because you are right, the economy has grown, but it will retract at 26p and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see if it retracts to similar levels of a few years ago it will have the same result.

If economic output is £200 and tax is 26p thats £52 to the treasury, if its dropped in phases to 19p and the consequence is growth in output to £300 that's now £57.... but if we put it to 26p with output of £300 that would mean £78??? yes tomorrow it would, but very soon output will again be £200 and youll be back to £52. That in simplistic terms is the reality, decreasing taxes increases growth, increasing taxes decreases growth. Thats the same the world over and less spending equals less VAT, Hollande made the same mistake as do all socialists.

I know little about economics but in real terms what is it that the tories are doing so right? You can band about all these figures all you want but all through this tory period of austerity and lax tax for corporations many many peoples economic situations HAVE got worse, that is undeniable. Surely the model in Scandinavian countries should be followed, more investment in social structures which have been proven to yield success both in economic and in real terms (I have lived in Sweden and trust me, life is better there).
(btw, not an attack at you, just frustrating to see people talking about all these numbers as if they are all that should matter, rather than quality of life etc)
 


Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
34,170
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
You can't get a degree in experience. All other things being equal a 70 year old will have a far greater wisdom than a 17 year old. Every day you experience something new. Older people just know more - simple! We also learned the dicipline and risks required for good/bad judgement.

Just for the record the old were young once - except 50 years ago we were the first and the greatest youth cult the world has ever known - an explosion of energy emitting from the U.K. that took the whole world by storm - what were the words you used? Creative, inspired, aspirational, positive, outward looking. Yep! - You're describing my generation brilliantly.

By the way, luckily, you have no experience or war and that's good. If however, young people wish to be greater informed of the horrors of total conflict, I would highly recommend the amazing and highly acclaimed 'The World at War' Thames TV produced series. You may have to search a little to access it as I doubt you'll find it on Facebook or Twitter - it's a serious piece of education.

What absolute drivel.

Young people know about the challenges they face in their lives today. Older people don't. How many OAPs could talk through the current university application process, communicate using snapchat or whatsapp, use devices connected to the internet of things, understand the competition involved in getting and keeping a first job, budgeting for a first home given the current conditions of the housing, rental and mortgage markets, start up an e-business or app company, be a carer for an elderly relative with dementia, understand how to budget for driving lessons when you're about to move out of home for the first time, or, as [MENTION=16159]Bold Seagull[/MENTION] says, join the military and get blown up?

My daughter hacked my iPad when she was three. My seventy year old mother can't even turn hers on
 




fosters headband

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2003
5,158
Brighton
What absolute drivel.

Young people know about the challenges they face in their lives today. Older people don't. How many OAPs could talk through the current university application process, communicate using snapchat or whatsapp, use devices connected to the internet of things, understand the competition involved in getting and keeping a first job, budgeting for a first home given the current conditions of the housing, rental and mortgage markets, start up an e-business or app company, be a carer for an elderly relative with dementia, understand how to budget for driving lessons when you're about to move out of home for the first time, or, as [MENTION=16159]Bold Seagull[/MENTION] says, join the military and get blown up?

My daughter hacked my iPad when she was three. My seventy year old mother can't even turn hers on

So why have all these bright youngsters voting for Corbyn, who must be around your mothers generation. I do find it funny that we have all these youngsters saying old people shouldn't vote but they want a pensioner to run the country?
 




Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
34,170
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
So why have all these bright youngsters voted for Corbyn, who must be around your mothers generation. I do find it funny that we have all these youngsters saying old people shouldn't vote but they want a pensioner to run the country?

I'm going to plump for "because it's not a presidential election". May tried to turn it in to one but that's not how democracy works. Corbyn has advisers and many of them in Momentum are young.
 


D

Deleted member 2719

Guest
I'm sure they are alive and well, but it doesn't mean that they can be a dickpool and prevent someone younger having the right to vote.

Respect works both ways - respect the youth and they'll respect the elders. That's why Corbyn did well with the young voters - he talked *to* them, the Tories and the likes of you just talked down to them.

You say talked, i say bribed and some will say groomed.
 


fosters headband

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2003
5,158
Brighton
I'm going to plump for "because it's not a presidential election". May tried to turn it in to one but that's not how democracy works. Corbyn has advisers and many of them in Momentum are young.

Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill are not what I would call old and they have just made a fine job of advising an older lady.
 




LU7 RED

Active member
Nov 5, 2010
562
Leighton Buzzard
Plenty of moaners in the Metro letters section about young voters. Basically because the election didn't turn out the way the writer wanted it to...bit sad really.

One minute the young get moaned at for not voting - then they haven't voted correctly. Couldn't make it up.
 


brightn'ove

cringe
Apr 12, 2011
9,137
London
Plenty of moaners in the Metro letters section about young voters. Basically because the election didn't turn out the way the writer wanted it to...bit sad really.

One minute the young get moaned at for not voting - then they haven't voted correctly. Couldn't make it up.

A bit like how one minute it's the most despicable thing in the world to be associated with former terrorists, but now it's ok?

Perhaps people on the right are just a little ... hypocritical?
 


LU7 RED

Active member
Nov 5, 2010
562
Leighton Buzzard
A bit like how one minute it's the most despicable thing in the world to be associated with former terrorists, but now it's ok?

Perhaps people on the right are just a little ... hypocritical?

Quite - also they really don't come out as nice people really do they. I mean - who would prefer to go for a pint with - a group of Tory MP's or a group of Labour MP's?
 






Grombleton

Surrounded by <div>s
Dec 31, 2011
7,356






GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
46,735
Gloucester
What absolute drivel.

Young people know about the challenges they face in their lives today. Older people don't. How many OAPs could talk through the current university application process?
Been there, done it, some years ago.

.....communicate using snapchat or whatsapp
If that's a pre-requisite for voting or an indication of political awareness, heaven help us all!


.........use devices connected to the internet of things, understand the competition involved in getting and keeping a first job
Been there, done that too.

....budgeting for a first home given the current conditions of the housing, rental and mortgage markets
Done that too - and re: the present conditions, why would be not be fully aware of them, given that we are doing our best to help our children get over that difficult first hurdle?

......start up an e-business or app company, be a carer for an elderly relative with dementia, understand how to budget for driving lessons when you're about to move out of home for the first time
See answer about budgeting for first home. Bank of Mum and Dad anyone? Some parents can't or won't help their children, but there are many of us doing the best we can, even if we're not rolling in money sufficiently to pay the deposit for them out of our pension!

.......or, as [MENTION=16159]Bold Seagull[/MENTION] says, join the military and get blown up?
True. But, large numbers of older voters didn't vote for any of those conflicts, or agree with us getting involved in them. And we are very sorry for every poor young person who has had their life ruined or ended in a horrible way. But it also has to be noted that they were all volunteers - it was a very different story for our fathers or grandfathers who risked, and in many cases laid down, their lives in the 1940s and 50s.
 




attila

1997 Club
Jul 17, 2003
2,246
South Central Southwick
Some of the curmudgeonly comments on this thread are so funny! It is fantastic that so many young people are energised and that they don't even NOTICE the bile of the right wing press which influences many older people (or if they do mock up wonderful pisstake versions of Sun/Mail front pages like the ones I've been sharing on Facebook). And the idea that this vote surge is just young people is ludicrous - many of the new votes have come from older people who simply didn't bother to vote before 'cos they thought all the parties were the same. And many Labour switchers this time were comfortably off Tories who finally thought: we've had enough of austerity and food banks and appeals to our narrow self-interest, we're happy to pay more tax to help out those better off than ourselves. That's what I often found canvassing in EWS and online.
But online is the key. The five unelected billionaires who thought they could control (some) opinions in this country have been outflanked by social media. And time is on our side: the really old Mail/Express/Sun/Telegraph etc voters who don't do computers and whom we couldn't reach with social media are dying off, to be replaced on the electoral register by new voters who get their news from the web, not the mainstream corporate outlets. Time is on our side....
We'll be even better organised by the next election in October :)

And I must repeat a comment I made re the right wing 'economic' argument against our socialist policies. (This is only directed at right wingers who supported Brexit, not Remainers: at least you were consistent)
Why was it that when it came to Brexit it was all emotion and Britain and ignoring dire warnings of economic disaster, but when it comes to us, you roar the same dire warnings you ignored from your own side in the referendum?
Can't wait for the fixtures now ;)
 






drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,063
Burgess Hill
You answered your own rhetorical question. Youre right, the economy has grown considerably and one of the reasons why and a reason why unemployment is at historical lows is that companies pay less tax, that means more staff, less unemployment benefits, it means more businesses which means increasing economic output, investment by business, which in turn leads to increased VAT receipts. There is no question that if every business was charged 26p next week instead of 19p this week, then next week that would earn more money than this week, but it is also wrong to believe that the effects very quickly would not be a retraction in the economy, with less growth and less spending/less secondary VAT, less new business and certainly less foreign business which in turn effects growth, employment and tax receipts. You cannot take a 7p in the £ loss of profitability/tax hike in isolation. It has far reaching effects to business profitability which greatly affects the overall economy.

You cant set tax rates based on other countries, only on what will bring the best balance of growth and tax receipts in the UK

The reason why 19p brings in more now than 26p is because you are right, the economy has grown, but it will retract at 26p and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see if it retracts to similar levels of a few years ago it will have the same result.

If economic output is £200 and tax is 26p thats £52 to the treasury, if its dropped in phases to 19p and the consequence is growth in output to £300 that's now £57.... but if we put it to 26p with output of £300 that would mean £78??? yes tomorrow it would, but very soon output will again be £200 and youll be back to £52. That in simplistic terms is the reality, decreasing taxes increases growth, increasing taxes decreases growth. Thats the same the world over and less spending equals less VAT, Hollande made the same mistake as do all socialists.

We have come out of a recession, that is why companies are doing better. You can argue that lowering corporation tax was one of the reason we came out of that recession but then you can also argue that lowering CT has merely allowed the rich to become richer as the gap between rich and poor widens. Tax income as a proportion of GDP has remained around 35/36% for about 20 years so the burden is obviously shifting to the individual. Don't agree with your assertion that the economy will contract just because CT is raised.

Your math is a little patronizing to say the least.

As for comparisons, of course you can make them because one of the clichéd comebacks is that if we raise CT companies will go abroad. If so, where will they go that is cheaper than 26p
 


drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,063
Burgess Hill
This is not about winning and losing this is about bribery, which Corbyn will NOT be able to stick to unless he leaves the cupboard bare for decades.
By the way the Tories did actually WIN.

You seem to ignore the fact that Conservatism is generally about bribery, eg lowering taxes, changing IHT etc etc. My perception is that people tend to vote Tory because they believe they will be personally better off


I have not read a paper for decades, it comes down to business experience and commonsense.

I would just point out that your vote alone doesn't decide the election and that there are many voters who do read papers and, it would appear, are influenced by them


I have not read a paper for decades, it comes down to business experience and commonsense, i have NEVER said that the young are not intelligent, they just have no life experience, it's not there thought.

When i was 18 i voted, i was a clueless sheep just like most 18 year old's.

The point is, again, it is not just your vote that is relevant. There are plenty of people of all ages that are not able to understand exactly why they are voting the way they do (just for balance there are plenty that do know what they are doing)


I was told to respect our elders i don't see a lot of that goes on nowadays, who knows one day we may get that culture back.[/QUOTE]

I think generally you start from a level of respect but then that can either go up or down depending on the behaviour/attitude of our elders. Same as with anyone else really. If someone has fought in a war for us your respect for them will go up but if they then exhibit racist, homophobic attitudes then your level of respect will drop.
 


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