police dealing with incident on London bridge.,

DavidinSouthampton · Jun 5, 2017

symyjym said:
What Muslims will remind Christians is that because Jesus in their view is God, and from the Old Testament God ordered Moses to slaughter all the men, boys and female non virgins from the Midianite tribe and took the females as sex slaves. Today we would call this genocide and this is pretty mush what Muhammad did to the Banu Qurayza tribe from Medina.

How do Christians get around this problem?

beorhthelm said:
by ignoring the old testament when inconvenient. a pox on all their houses.

It's not about "when inconvenient". It's when new Testament ideas and concepts contradict the Old Testament teaching.

There is plenty in the Old Testament which the New Testament (Jesus) endorses - things about Justice, about being kind, fair, looking after those who can not look after themselves, charity.

But when Jesus came proclaiming (not that he did in necessarily that loudly) himself as the Son of God, plenty of Jews at the time would have been expecting/hoping for a warrior king to lead them out of Roman oppression. They got something very, very different.

And going back to the Book of revelation, which is what started this off, if you read it (which I have from beginning to end), it struck me as something which might make a good film, but would need something of a Harry Potter style special effects unit to carry it off.

GT49er · Jun 5, 2017

pigbite said:
By putting their fingers in their ears and going "lalalala Jesus is completely different to the God of the OT lalalalalala nothing to do with Christianity lalalalala it's the Jews really lalalala".

Or to put it in a non-patronising non-derogatory way, they advocate not actually doing the crap parts of the Old Testament.

Triggaaar · Jun 5, 2017

GT49er said:
Making it illegal to wave an ISIS flag would probably be quite acceptable to most people. Defining it as treason could make the available penalties significantly heavier too I guess.

Sure, but it's not currently against the law, so we can't blame the authorities for not locking up someone who had the flag.

WonderingSoton · Jun 5, 2017

The texts of these religions are just that - words written by blokes. Who were probably high on opium half the time. Interpreted again and again by other blokes, over such a long time period, that they cease to have any relevance. Believe in whatever God you wish to believe in by all means. Just stop putting so much weight on the ramblings of flesh and blood men written thousands of year ago.

Triggaaar · Jun 5, 2017

pb21 said:
This is key IMO.

We should be trying to differentiate and understand why most Muslims are decent, law abiding and compassionate human beings who choose to ignore the more juicy bits of the Quran, from those Muslims who are ***** who who chose to blow themselves up at concerts. Being Muslim isn't the difference is it?

Why are most Muslims compassionate human beings?
Why are some Muslims absolute *****?

All humans start the same. The problem is that young men are often a bit angry and aggressive and think things in the world are against them. If such a young man is told of the horrors the west are doing to that man's homeland (and thanks to the drone attacks and the like, it's not like they need to make it up), and that man is reminded of what their god says to do about it, it must be easy to turn that man to violence.

If they didn't already believe in that the Quran was the word of god, it wouldn't work. But they do, so it does.

Deleted member 22389 · Jun 5, 2017

Leighgull said:
Threat of jail? More likely that most Muslims choose to ignore the more juicy bits of the Quran. I am also pretty sure that most Muslims are decent, law abiding and compassionate human beings.

My issue is that mainstream Muslims will often try to deflect any and all criticism by claiming that their faith is one of peace whereas, actually, their prophet was a war monger, murderer and sex case.

Exposure of the dark heart of Islam makes them very uncomfortable as it would mean their necessary abandonment of their entire cultural identity and acknowledgement that everything they have ever been taught is falsehood. That is highly destabilising. Better to ignore, deflect, cover over and obscure.

Putting these nutters to one side, think we have real issues with hard line / conservative views of this religion in our country and across Europe. When I used to see women completely covered when I was living in Luton, this didn't feel moderate to me in the slightest, and I think this causes confusion. We don't know what the hell is going on.

Triggaaar · Jun 5, 2017

WonderingSoton said:
The texts of these religions are just that - words written by blokes. Who were probably high on opium half the time. Interpreted again and again by other blokes, over such a long time period, that they cease to have any relevance. Believe in whatever God you wish to believe in by all means. Just stop putting so much weight on the ramblings of flesh and blood men written thousands of year ago.

Well that's what an atheist would say, but Muslims disagree. They don't even believe in evolution.

GT49er · Jun 5, 2017

Triggaaar said:
Sure, but it's not currently against the law, so we can't blame the authorities for not locking up someone who had the flag.

Yes, but you asked what we could do, and my suggestion was passing a law to outlaw it. You didn't ask what we (or rather they, the security services) should have done.

Triggaaar · Jun 5, 2017

GT49er said:
Yes, but you asked what we could do, and my suggestion was passing a law to outlaw it. You didn't ask what we (or rather they, the security services) should have done.

You've misunderstood. My post was a reply to Springal, who is angry that the security services didn't do anything about the man with an ISIS flag, and my point is what we (our security services) could do about those who have had ISIS flags in the past. Changing the law now wouldn't mean we could lock up people who had the flag in the past, so still wouldn't stop such attacks.

On a separate note, if we made it against the law to have the ISIS flag, those supporting ISIS would just use a different flag for the same thing.

Wrong-Direction · Jun 5, 2017

A mass crackdown on isis propaganda and support would be a good start

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

GT49er · Jun 5, 2017

Triggaaar said:
You've misunderstood. My post was a reply to Springal, who is angry that the security services didn't do anything about the man with an ISIS flag, and my point is what we (our security services) could do about those who have had ISIS flags in the past. Changing the law now wouldn't mean we could lock up people who had the flag in the past, so still wouldn't stop such attacks.

On a separate note, if we made it against the law to have the ISIS flag, those supporting ISIS would just use a different flag for the same thing.

Fair enough. On the separate note, I'm sure the wording could be designed to encompass any form of flag or device demonstrating support for ISIS.

Triggaaar · Jun 5, 2017

GT49er said:
Fair enough. On the separate note, I'm sure the wording could be designed to encompass any form of flag or device demonstrating support for ISIS.

That's really difficult to put people in prison for. Say it's just a standard Muslim flag? It could just be a flag with Islam written on it. We can't just go locking up people for having a flag that may or not be supporting ISIS.

Springal · Jun 5, 2017

Triggaaar said:
You've misunderstood. My post was a reply to Springal, who is angry that the security services didn't do anything about the man with an ISIS flag, and my point is what we (our security services) could do about those who have had ISIS flags in the past. Changing the law now wouldn't mean we could lock up people who had the flag in the past, so still wouldn't stop such attacks.

On a separate note, if we made it against the law to have the ISIS flag, those supporting ISIS would just use a different flag for the same thing.

I'm not just saying lock them up for having an ISIS flag... but surely we should be doing a bit more to collar these people, especially if the authorities are also receiving tip offs from the muslim community? They even appeared in a Channel 4 documentary FFS..

pb21 · Jun 5, 2017

Triggaaar said:
All humans start the same. The problem is that young men are often a bit angry and aggressive and think things in the world are against them. If such a young man is told of the horrors the west are doing to that man's homeland (and thanks to the drone attacks and the like, it's not like they need to make it up), and that man is reminded of what their god says to do about it, it must be easy to turn that man to violence.

If they didn't already believe in that the Quran was the word of god, it wouldn't work. But they do, so it does.

So is anger is the difference then? That’s what differentiates one Muslim who doesn’t blow himself up from one Muslim who does blow himself up?

If so why are they angry?

Just to be clear, I dont have an agenda, I'm just trying to understand this situation.

GT49er · Jun 5, 2017

Triggaaar said:
That's really difficult to put people in prison for. Say it's just a standard Muslim flag? It could just be a flag with Islam written on it. We can't just go locking up people for having a flag that may or not be supporting ISIS.

If it's just a standard moslem flag, then it wouldn't be a crime; if on the other hand, it is an ISIS one............

Triggaaar · Jun 5, 2017

Springal said:
I'm not just saying lock them up for having an ISIS flag...

You're criticising the security services for not stopping him (which means locking him up), on the basis that he was seen with an ISIS flag. By all means be critical of our security if they've done something wrong, but what exactly are you suggesting they do?

but surely we should be doing a bit more to collar these people, especially if the authorities are also receiving tip offs from the muslim community? They even appeared in a Channel 4 documentary FFS..

What is more? Which law is it they broke, or what law do we need to bring in that allows us to imprison them before they attack?

Of course it's particularly annoying when we find these murders had been reported for whatever reason, but let's not just start criticising the security services unless we know what they've done wrong. They can't just imprison everyone whose been reported as a concern by someone from the Muslim community.

Springal · Jun 5, 2017

Triggaaar said:
You're criticising the security services for not stopping him (which means locking him up), on the basis that he was seen with an ISIS flag. By all means be critical of our security if they've done something wrong, but what exactly are you suggesting they do?

What is more? Which law is it they broke, or what law do we need to bring in that allows us to imprison them before they attack?

Of course it's particularly annoying when we find these murders had been reported for whatever reason, but let's not just start criticising the security services unless we know what they've done wrong. They can't just imprison everyone whose been reported as a concern by someone from the Muslim community.

So basically there is no point in an intelligence service is what you are saying, because they can only do something if a crime is committed?

Triggaaar · Jun 5, 2017

GT49er said:
If it's just a standard moslem flag, then it wouldn't be a crime

Which means those supporting ISIS would just start using the standard flag. Or they'd change it a little bit, but it wouldn't be an ISIS flag, so we can't stop them.

Triggaaar · Jun 5, 2017

Springal said:
So basically there is no point in an intelligence service is what you are saying, because they can only do something if a crime is committed?

You obviously know I'm not saying that. They can monitor people they are suspicious of, but we don't have the manpower to constantly monitor every individual that's been reported or seen with a flag. If your argument is that we need to massively up the budget so that we can do so, fine, but I don't see what you're currently blaming the security services for.

Springal · Jun 5, 2017

Triggaaar said:
You obviously know I'm not saying that. They can monitor people they are suspicious of, but we don't have the manpower to constantly monitor every individual that's been reported or seen with a flag. If your argument is that we need to massively up the budget so that we can do so, fine, but I don't see what you're currently blaming the security services for.

I'm annoyed because a terrorist went on national TV program about Jihadis, was filmed with an ISIS flag, was reported to the authorities yet somehow was allowed to carry out this attack. If that is not enough red flags for the authorities to do something then we really are not safe or in control of our own country.

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