Breaking news: Reports of explosion in Manchester

Wilko · May 23, 2017

Triggaaar said:
Indeed, so accept that it's not generally what Christians or Muslims think. They believe god gave man free will (Adam ate an apple) and so humans are responsible for their actions, but god has a general plan etc. All shit of course, but there's no need to say that any kind words from a religious person are meaningless.

Once again, there is the problem with this grey thinking. If men have free will then you cannot believe in gods plan/fate as well. If you believe god has a 'general plan' and men can make their own choices then you cannot also believe that god is omnipowerful and in control of everything. If you believe god can perform miracles to save few of the people last night in close scrapes then you must also accept that he killed the others.

Wilko · May 23, 2017

pigbite said:
The problem here is two fold. Firstly, as pointed out by another poster, Islam lacks a handful of influential leaders with global reach. Secondly, and more critically I think, there is still an essentially "cult" culture at ground level. I mean this in the sense that there is immense social and family pressure to conform to a set of beliefs and morals. Those that do not follow an acceptable level of adherence are treated as apostates and face shunning and other social behaviours that punish alternative thinking.

Of course this is not true in every Muslim household and there are degrees of intensity here but in general it's not easy to promote a different message if your friends and family are more fundamental in their outlook. The same is true in many smaller sects of Christianity where shunning and exclusion are used as social control mechanisms to discourage what is perceived as dissent.

My point is that this is where we were at as a nation as recently as 60, 70 years ago. The social stigma associated with certain situations like being a single mother, living together outside of marriage, being anything other than straight etc. etc. was still very great. The past 40-50 or so years have seen a great change with these "Christian" values challenged and pushed to being a irrelevance for most.

I really believe that there needs to be concerted effort by those progressive and truly moderate Muslims to promote some of the same change in attitiude. The hard battle is that for many they really don't seem to want to change and use some of the issues that our permissive and secular culture has as a direct argument for doing nothing.

Another great post. My concern is that Islam cannot 'change its mind' in the same way other faiths can. For instance, the catholic church can update its ideas on abortion or homosexuality or sex before marriage through the Pope, if he gets a message from god (yes, I understand the lunacy in this) then the church can progress and adapt.

Islam and more specifically the Qu'ran however is the one and only and final word of Allah, it is 'the perfect book' with no errors or inaccuracies, so how can you update and adapt the doctrines to suit contemporary society?

Albion my Albion · May 23, 2017

U.S. President Donald Trump, in Bethlehem, said the attack preyed upon children and described those responsible as "evil losers."

"This wicked ideology must be obliterated. And I mean completely obliterated," he added.

lawros left foot · May 23, 2017

Wilko said:
Another great post. My concern is that Islam cannot 'change its mind' in the same way other faiths can. For instance, the catholic church can update its ideas on abortion or homosexuality or sex before marriage through the Pope, if he gets a message from god (yes, I understand the lunacy in this) then the church can progress and adapt.

Islam and more specifically the Qu'ran however is the one and only and final word of Allah, it is 'the perfect book' with no errors or inaccuracies, so how can you update and adapt the doctrines to suit contemporary society?

Islam is 500ish years younger than Christianity, to be either Catholic or Protestant in this country from circa 1500, to 1700 was no walk in the park either.
Henry Vlll alone had 72000 people executed in England, mainly for religious reasons, and his daughters also kept up the family tradition of religious persecution, of both Christian sects, at various times . Maybe it's something all religions go through, and it's the innocent who suffer.

My deepest condolences to all affected by the Manchester lunatic.

Wilko · May 23, 2017

lawros left foot said:
Islam is 500ish years younger than Christianity, to be either Catholic or Protestant in this country from circa 1500, to 1700 was no walk in the park either.
Henry Vlll alone had 72000 people executed in England, mainly for religious reasons, and his daughters also kept up the family tradition of religious persecution, of both Christian sects, at various times . Maybe it's something all religions go through, and it's the innocent who suffer.

My deepest condolences to all affected by the Manchester lunatic.

Indeed, not many would have predicted those changes in the catholic just even 50 years ago.

RIP and condolences to those involved.

As for those that say this thread has been hijacked and derailed, it has indeed but although not justified, it is understandable. At a time of high emotions people look for someone to blame or a solution to the issue, comments fly about and things get said. I apologise if I have gone off on a tangent about religion but I can honestly say my reasoning was coming from a good place, an attempt to consider ways to stop these events happening in the future.

As others have said, some of these difficult issues also need to be discussed and we cant ignore what is in front of our eyes but for now those thoughts can be put to one side for another day.

lawros left foot · May 23, 2017

Thunder Bolt said:
In the meantime, whilst you are point scoring and name calling, one woman led 50 children to safety in the Holiday Inn, so they could be reunited with their parents, a homeless man, Steven Jones, hugged a woman who was dying, taxi drivers, and other drivers were giving people free lifts, and locals were offering beds, etc and tea/coffee to the emergency services.

Despite the shock and horror in my family, we look for the good in people, as you'll always find it, if you look hard enough.

As always, a very measured and considered post Thunder Bolt.
Your words, sum up my feelings far more eloquently than I could have managed today.

Triggaaar · May 23, 2017

Wilko said:
Once again, there is the problem with this grey thinking. If men have free will then you cannot believe in gods plan/fate as well. If you believe god has a 'general plan' and men can make their own choices then you cannot also believe that god is omnipowerful and in control of everything. If you believe god can perform miracles to save few of the people last night in close scrapes then you must also accept that he killed the others.

And all of that applies to Christianity as well as Islam. What's your point?

Triggaaar · May 23, 2017

GT49er said:
I didn't say 'hate filled post', I said '[hate filled]posts' - oh you're really notching up the talking bollox now.

No, you asked me to read your post again, as you feel there was no hate in it. I never said there was. You think the difference between 'post' and 'posts' is meaningless and petty, but in the context they're completely different things. The point is, there is hate in some of your posts.

Papa Lazarou · May 23, 2017

Albion my Albion said:
U.S. President Donald Trump, in Bethlehem, said the attack preyed upon children and described those responsible as "evil losers."

"This wicked ideology must be obliterated. And I mean completely obliterated," he added.

When he says ideology, what is he referring to I wonder?

Triggaaar · May 23, 2017

Wilko said:
Another great post. My concern is that Islam cannot 'change its mind' in the same way other faiths can. For instance, the catholic church can update its ideas on abortion or homosexuality or sex before marriage through the Pope, if he gets a message from god (yes, I understand the lunacy in this)

Islam and more specifically the Qu'ran however is the one and only and final word of Allah, it is 'the perfect book' with no errors or inaccuracies, so how can you update and adapt the doctrines to suit contemporary society?

What about Judaism?

hans kraay fan club · May 23, 2017

Papa Lazarou said:
When he says ideology, what is he referring to I wonder?

Indeed. Interesting stance, the day after singing a massive arms deal with the Saudis.

Thunder Bolt · May 23, 2017

lawros left foot said:
As always, a very measured and considered post Thunder Bolt.
Your words, sum up my feelings far more eloquently than I could have managed today.

Thank you.

Wilko · May 23, 2017

Triggaaar said:
And all of that applies to Christianity as well as Islam. What's your point?

I agree, both religions are totally illogical. Anyway, I am happy to chat to people via PM if they want to continue the debate but I do not want to continue it on this thread.

GT49er · May 23, 2017

lawros left foot said:
Islam is 500ish years younger than Christianity, to be either Catholic or Protestant in this country from circa 1500, to 1700 was no walk in the park either.
Henry Vlll alone had 72000 people executed in England, mainly for religious reasons, and his daughters also kept up the family tradition of religious persecution, of both Christian sects, at various times . Maybe it's something all religions go through, and it's the innocent who suffer.

My deepest condolences to all affected by the Manchester lunatic.

Was a bit staggered by that figure of 72,000 so googled for more information and found:

"It is impossible to tell for sure, and historians have no definitive number. It is estimated that anywhere from 57,000 to 72,000 people were executed during Henry’s 37 years’ reign, but this is likely to be an exaggeration." (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/how-many-executions-was-henry-viii-responsible)

So probably not 72,000 then, but obviously still far too many. You have a point about religions going through a phase - I've no idea how we solve the problem of radical Islam, but I have to say that the option of waiting five hundred years for them to catch up is not one that appeals!

Triggaaar · May 23, 2017

mejonaNO12 aka riskit said:
I'm so glad this thread has taken it's normal route. Terrific work by those involved.

So you're saying we shouldn't discuss what possible options there are to reduce the number of attacks in the future?

Of course we could have a thread dedicated to sending well meaning messages and telling stories of the good work by many people on the scene etc, and a separate thread to discuss what can be done in the future, but to suggest we don't talk about future diplomatic options is silly IMO.

Pavilionaire · May 23, 2017

Triggaaar said:
You're an idiot.

Oh do f*ck off, if you read what I what I was replying to it was a comment about governments thinking they have time to waste on issues like foxhunting when there are more important things to be focusing on, like security.

symyjym · May 23, 2017

Wilko said:
My concern is that Islam cannot 'change its mind' in the same way other faiths can. For instance, the catholic church can update its ideas on abortion or homosexuality or sex before marriage through the Pope, if he gets a message from god (yes, I understand the lunacy in this) then the church can progress and adapt.

Islam and more specifically the Qu'ran however is the one and only and final word of Allah, it is 'the perfect book' with no errors or inaccuracies, so how can you update and adapt the doctrines to suit contemporary society?

Islam is a very troubled religion because Muslims are bound to Muhammad who could do no wrong and is regarded as the best role model for mankind. Every inhuman deed he did will be justified by Muslims including even when at 50 marrying a child of 6 and consummating the marriage when she was 9. To defend this as a basic principle means that their logic and morallity is badly skewed on the first level.

No other religion has to defend a tyrant.

lawros left foot · May 23, 2017

GT49er said:
Was a bit staggered by that figure of 72,000 so googled for more information and found:

"It is impossible to tell for sure, and historians have no definitive number. It is estimated that anywhere from 57,000 to 72,000 people were executed during Henry’s 37 years’ reign, but this is likely to be an exaggeration." (http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/how-many-executions-was-henry-viii-responsible)

So probably not 72,000 then, but obviously still far too many. You have a point about religions going through a phase - I've no idea how we solve the problem of radical Islam, but I have to say that the option of waiting five hundred years for them to catch up is not one that appeals!

The number I believed was accepted was 72000, and a lot of books etc I've read have this number, but, I won't dispute a lower figure, however, one person dying prematurely over how you worship a god that probably (my opinion) doesn't exist, is obscene anyway

Loadicus Trux · May 23, 2017

I really wish they wouldn't name these extremist scumbags. It's what they want surely! Just scrape them up and bin 'em, and never plaster their ugly mugs all over the media.

Ernest · May 23, 2017

hans kraay fan club said:
Indeed. Interesting stance, the day after singing a massive arms deal with the Saudis.

Seeing as Saudi Arabia haven't fought a war in however long why do they need these massive arms deals ? And we sell them as much too

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