French Election - Hope wins over hate

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 8, 2017

Buzzer said:
How about EU rules on fishing quotas which have decimated the UK fishing industry? There's a reason why all those Cornish fishermen voted for Brexit and it wasn't about bent bananas or metric weights.

***k me. Perhaps I won't read this thread after all. I remember the 'cod wars' and it wasn't us vs the EU it was us vs Iceland. Bjork, Sigur Ros, Bragi Boddason, Bragi inn gamli Boddason, Þjóðólfur úr Hvini, kiss my arse, Þorbjörn hornklofi.Your boys got a Hell of British Beefing.

Lincoln Imp · May 8, 2017

Buzzer said:
You keep claiming this so maybe stop with sweeping statements like this one when mentioning the FN campaign being race-led.

and this one where you've lumped all Brexit voters together (again):

Time we left this alone I suggest, but in neither of the quotes you used did I lump all Brexit voters together or make any claims regarding racism. You're either picking on the wrong quotes or the wrong poster.

lawros left foot · May 8, 2017

Buzzer said:
I expect not seeing as the Cornish fishermen who were so vocal about Brexit were the ones who were still out fishing. Getting back to your question, do you concede that EU law has directly had a detrimental effect on the UK fishing industry?

The original question was to leavers, of when has the EU directly subverted British parliamentary democracy, it wasn't for remainers to justify any EU directives etc.
However, I understand that one of the leavers main method of attack is to not answer difficult questions, and to, instead reverse arguments and try to get reMOANers on the defensive. So, I would imagine that , yes EU fishing policy has had a detrimental effect on British fishermen in some areas, it, a more destructive effect was probably Icelands introduction of a 250 mile exclusion zone their island, post 1970s Cod war, to protect fish stocks. A measure that was fought against by the British government.

Buzzer · May 8, 2017

lawros left foot said:
The original question was to leavers, of when has the EU directly subverted British parliamentary democracy, it wasn't for remainers to justify any EU directives etc.
However, I understand that one of the leavers main method of attack is to not answer difficult questions, and to, instead reverse arguments and try to get reMOANers on the defensive. So, I would imagine that , yes EU fishing policy has had a detrimental effect on British fishermen in some areas, it, a more destructive effect was probably Icelands introduction of a 250 mile exclusion zone their island, post 1970s Cod war, to protect fish stocks. A measure that was fought against by the British government.

British democracy is there to protect British interests. By removing our rights to control who fishes our waters, it's directly subverting British democracy. I'm not asking you to justify this EU law, simply acknowledge EU supremacy on fishing in British waters.

Buzzer · May 8, 2017

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
***k me. Perhaps I won't read this thread after all. I remember the 'cod wars' and it wasn't us vs the EU it was us vs Iceland. Bjork, Sigur Ros, Bragi Boddason, Bragi inn gamli Boddason, Þjóðólfur úr Hvini, kiss my arse, Þorbjörn hornklofi.Your boys got a Hell of British Beefing.

Let's not forget Soley, Gus Gus, Eliza Newman, Emiliana Torrini, FM Belfast, Lay Low and Jon Pall Sigmarsson.

lawros left foot · May 8, 2017

Buzzer said:
British democracy is there to protect British interests. By removing our rights to control who fishes our waters, it's directly subverting British democracy. I'm not asking you to justify this EU law, simply acknowledge EU supremacy on fishing quotas.

I actually served on fishery protection vessels in the 80s,and was involved in the arrest of several foreign trawlers, and when caught they had hefty fines to pay with confiscation of their nets etc. When did a British parliament vote against EU fisheries policy, and when did the EU sanctions Britain for it?

lawros left foot · May 8, 2017

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
***k me. Perhaps I won't read this thread after all. I remember the 'cod wars' and it wasn't us vs the EU it was us vs Iceland. Bjork, Sigur Ros, Bragi Boddason, Bragi inn gamli Boddason, Þjóðólfur úr Hvini, kiss my arse, Þorbjörn hornklofi.Your boys got a Hell of British Beefing.

But, we actually lost the Cod war though, I was on the last RN ship to leave the disputed area,( HMS Yarmouth)

Neville's Breakfast · May 8, 2017

nicko31 said:
Macron wins

The sort of moderate, yet progressive leader we can only dream of in this country

How do you define progressive ? He is an ex banker all set to 'liberalize' working practices. It is interesting how the right now uses the language of the left to implement a EU wide free market in capital and Labour. I doubt the French left will capitulate as easily as the British left and you won't find too many people over there describing Macron as 'progressive.'

Buzzer · May 8, 2017

lawros left foot said:
I actually served on fishery protection vessels in the 80s,and was involved in the arrest of several foreign trawlers, and when caught they had hefty fines to pay with confiscation of their nets etc. When did a British parliament vote against EU fisheries policy, and when did the EU sanctions Britain for it?

Now who is avoiding answering questions? It's a very simple question - who is the ultimate authority on rules regarding fishing in UK waters - the EU or British Parliament? It doesn't matter whether British opinions on the matter right now coincide with that EU law. We have no right to exercise British democracy in our British Parliament to amend or repeal those rules without EU approval.

lawros left foot · May 8, 2017

Buzzer said:
Now who is avoiding answering questions? It's a very simple question - who is the ultimate authority on rules regarding fishing in UK waters - the EU or British Parliament? It doesn't matter whether British opinions on the matter right now coincide with that EU law. We have no right to exercise British democracy in our British Parliament to amend or repeal those rules without EU approval.

Have you got any examples of major areas of legislation in which Brussels has subverted the democratic will of the British people? I don't think bananas and under-powered vacuum cleaners really count.

This was Cheshunt seagulls original question, I asked why no leavers had answered it after it had been posted for about six hours.You have now come along, in typical leaver style, and reversed the question because you can't answer it, and then accuse me of dodging a question.
As I answered before, and this will be my last post on the matter, British Parliament have never voted against EU fishing policy, therefore the EU have never sanctioned Britain for it.

Buzzer · May 8, 2017

Neville's Breakfast said:
How do you define progressive ? He is an ex banker all set to 'liberalize' working practices. It is interesting how the right now uses the language of the left to implement a EU wide free market in capital and Labour. I doubt the French left will capitulate as easily as the British left and you won't find too many people over there describing Macron as 'progressive.'

It's a very strange phenomenon. Trudeau in Canada is feted as a poster boy for progessive liberals the world over and he's made big steps in some areas but he's also ruled out raising the minimum wage, he supports criminalising hatred of a belief system and is all for trade agreements with special courts outside the existing legal system for large corporations. None of these seem particularly progressive to me.

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 8, 2017

lawros left foot said:
But, we actually lost the Cod war though, I was on the last RN ship to leave the disputed area,( HMS Yarmouth)

No, indeed. My point (referring to previous poster's comments, not yours) was we did not dictate who could fish where before we joined the EU or after (first cod war, 1958), and that we will not see Cornish fisherman free to fish where and what they like after we leave the EU, either. The idea of voting to leave the EU because of EU fishing policy is a bit like giving up having a TV licence because of the BBCs light entertainment policy. You get neither more fish nor better telly. But that's the Cornish for you, possibly.

Oh, and hats off for your RN engagement. :bowdown:

beorhthelm · May 8, 2017

lawros left foot said:
Have you got any examples of major areas of legislation in which Brussels has subverted the democratic will of the British people? I don't think bananas and under-powered vacuum cleaners really count.

how about the smart meter rollout, >£10bn cost mandated by EU that doesnt deliver on the savings expected and even the energy industry doesnt want? or being unable to permenantly reduce VAT in any area not zero rated? or the or the current diesel scandal, where we've focused on CO2 reductions, biased vehicle excise and MOT regulations, knowing that there was an increase in other emmissions from diesels?

lawros left foot said:
British Parliament have never voted against EU fishing policy

Parliment has no authority once included in the treaties of EU and ratified, the powers are passed to ministers who enact secondary legislation.

JC Footy Genius · May 8, 2017

lawros left foot said:
Have you got any examples of major areas of legislation in which Brussels has subverted the democratic will of the British people? I don't think bananas and under-powered vacuum cleaners really count.

This was Cheshunt seagulls original question, I asked why no leavers had answered it after it had been posted for about six hours.You have now come along, in typical leaver style, and reversed the question because you can't answer it, and then accuse me of dodging a question.
As I answered before, and this will be my last post on the matter, British Parliament have never voted against EU fishing policy, therefore the EU have never sanctioned Britain for it.

Depends what you mean by 'subverting the democratic will' of the British people.

UK is on the losing side most in the EU Council

Figure 1 shows the per cent of times each EU government has been in a losing “minority” in Council votes, as a proportion of all votes it took part in in the 2004-2009 and 2009-2015 periods.

Votes by policy area in 2009-15

These aggregate patterns might be distorted by the fact that there were more votes on some policy issues than on others, and perhaps the UK was more likely to be on the opposition side in particular areas. To investigate this we can break the 2009-15 votes down by policy area, for all areas where at least 10 recorded votes were recorded. As Figure 3 shows, the UK voted against the majority more frequently on budgetary policies, foreign and security policy, and international development

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does-the-uk-win-or-lose-in-the-council-of-ministers/

Yes numerous UK governments signed up to this ongoing process of surrendering/pooling soverignity with no specific democratic mandate but it is a fact that our government loses more votes on issues that are a tad more important than bananas and vacuum cleaners.

Titanic · May 8, 2017

5mins-from-amex said:
Its actually Front National, but I'm sure you already knew that.

Indeed... and ELEVEN MILLION people voted for them... in some northern areas it was MORE THAN 50%. :nono:

Buzzer · May 8, 2017

lawros left foot said:
Have you got any examples of major areas of legislation in which Brussels has subverted the democratic will of the British people? I don't think bananas and under-powered vacuum cleaners really count.

This was Cheshunt seagulls original question, I asked why no leavers had answered it after it had been posted for about six hours.You have now come along, in typical leaver style, and reversed the question because you can't answer it, and then accuse me of dodging a question.
As I answered before, and this will be my last post on the matter, British Parliament have never voted against EU fishing policy, therefore the EU have never sanctioned Britain for it.

I've already answered this and you are still not answering my question. Fishing is a major area of legislation and the UK, with one of the largest fishing waters by area has had to concede ultimate control of that to the EU. EU control on fishing is so well-established, so long-running and so lucrative for other EU countries that it has been utterly pointless for successive UK governments to try any major reform in favour of British fishermen. We do not have the final word. It's not a question of whether we disagree or not with the EU but having the power to legislate for change if we want. That is the subversion of British democracy.

JC Footy Genius · May 8, 2017

Titanic said:
Indeed... and ELEVEN MILLION people voted for them... in some northern areas it was MORE THAN 50%.

Would a 35% / 10+ million vote for the BNP be greeted with the same delusional complacency I wonder :facepalm:

It may eventually dawn on the serially confused/deluded that the safety valve of UKIP and now the Brexit vote has prevented any such occurrence in this country.

Buzzer · May 8, 2017

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
No, indeed. My point (referring to previous poster's comments, not yours) was we did not dictate who could fish where before we joined the EU or after (first cod war, 1958), and that we will not see Cornish fisherman free to fish where and what they like after we leave the EU, either. The idea of voting to leave the EU because of EU fishing policy is a bit like giving up having a TV licence because of the BBCs light entertainment policy. You get neither more fish nor better telly. But that's the Cornish for you, possibly.

Oh, and hats off for your RN engagement.

The 1958 cod war was between just Iceland and the UK, nothing to do with the EU and nothing to do with quotas. It was purely down to disputed territorial waters. Britain gave up its first huge concession in the 70s only just before joining the common market because it was a condition of entry by the other members who wanted a slice of the richest fishing waters in Europe.

Maritime boundaries in Europe are now pretty much agreed upon and the UK will have the final word on who fishes within it and how much they will be allowed to catch. I know it's become a cliche but that really is an example of taking back control.

Buzzer · May 8, 2017

Why has this thread been moved?

JC Footy Genius · May 8, 2017

Buzzer said:
Why has this thread been moved?

Good question and good luck getting a rational/reasonable answer.

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French Election - Hope wins over hate

Harry Wilson's Tackle

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