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General Election 2017



The Clamp

The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
24,529
West is BEST
TotallyFreaked said:
My problem with charging tuition fees in the effect on the economy in the long term. When a student starts earning over the threshold (which is not that high in real monetary value) and start having to pay it back surely it will have an impact on their disposable income for buying consumer goods together with other things such as buying or leasing cars, saving up to buy a home or getting mortgages. Won't this start to impact on the economy?

My second issue is with the interest charged on the debt ( I think it was something around 6%) If I got charged that on my mortgage I would be shafted.
Click to expand...

Well, I kind of see your point but loans need to be paid back. University has always cost money but now the government/tax payer doesn't cover the cost.
We are seeing far higher achieving and far brighter students attending university and far higher earners upon leaving. All down to taking away the subsidies. University is free at the point of receiving it. University costs someone money, why not the person who benefits directly from it?
 




Kalimantan Gull

Kalimantan Gull

Well-known member
Aug 13, 2003
12,924
Central Borneo / the Lizard
But this huge tax burden for the rich - if you earn £80,000 its an extra £400 in tax. If you earn £500,000 its an extra £25k in tax - (although I imagine most of those have their money offshore anyway)

So its basically only a relatively tiny little-bit extra to ensure that all the infrastructure and services of Britain, that stability that helps these people make this money and get these jobs in the first place, gets funded properly.

I don't see what the fuss is about. Its certainly a lot better than the Tories plan, to slash taxes for businesses and the rich alike in the fanciful notion that this will miraculously stimulate the economy into creating millions of high paid jobs and reduce the cost of living or need for services.
 


neilbard

neilbard

Hedging up
Oct 8, 2013
6,245
Tyringham
For those of you reciting the 'Tories defend the rich' argument, read this. It's worth it, I assure you.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100...
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7..
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.

So, that's what they decided to do..

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20". Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.

So the first four men were unaffected.

They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men?
The paying customers?

How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).

The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33% saving).

The seventh now paid £5 instead of £7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% saving).

The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% saving).

The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a pound out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man.

He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got £10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a pound too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works.

The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction.

Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
 


Moshe Gariani

Moshe Gariani

Well-known member
Mar 10, 2005
12,089
Whose round is it?
 


hans kraay fan club

hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
61,333
Chandlers Ford
neilbard said:
For those of you reciting the 'Tories defend the rich' argument, read this. It's worth it, I assure you.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100...
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7..
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.

So, that's what they decided to do..

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20". Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.

So the first four men were unaffected.

They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men?
The paying customers?

How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).

The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33% saving).

The seventh now paid £5 instead of £7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% saving).

The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% saving).

The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a pound out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man.

He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got £10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a pound too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works.

The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction.

Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
Click to expand...

Its a crap parable, trotted out repeatedly, that suggests poor people on benefits are stupid and ungrateful.
 




hans kraay fan club

hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
61,333
Chandlers Ford
As a real-life aside to the crap parable, I actually DO go drinking in a group of 8-10, once a week, with mates that I play football with.

They break down roughly, as 2 x 40-something, reasonably well paid management types, 5 x 20-something trades / self-employed with limited spare cash, and a student with no spare cash.

Myself and the other older chap DO buy WAY more than our 'share' of rounds, because its the equitable thing to do.

Similarly with taxes, I'd be quite prepared to pay a little more than I do, for the good of society (though with some reservations about how our impending government is likely to choose to spend it).
 




B

BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
hans kraay fan club said:
As a real-life aside to the crap parable, I actually DO go drinking in a group of 8-10, once a week, with mates that I play football with.

They break down roughly, as 2 x 40-something, reasonably well paid management types, 5 x 20-something trades / self-employed with limited spare cash, and a student with no spare cash.

Myself and the other older chap DO buy WAY more than our 'share' of rounds, because its the equitable thing to do.

Similarly with taxes, I'd be quite prepared to pay a little more than I do, for the good of society (though with some reservations about how our impending government is likely to choose to spend it).
Click to expand...

Crap team mates !!

Never should you allow yourself to quite willingly accept beer from anyone if you have no intention of buying one back, let the odd one go of course but generally your poor and hesitant mates are taking the p*ss out of you, they need to 'man up', anyones decision to consume beer should be based on having the means to pay for it, unless they are your children, then there is no financial logic to almost anything.
 




Ernest

Ernest

Stupid IDIOT
Nov 8, 2003
42,739
LOONEY BIN
BigGully said:
Crap team mates !!

Never should you allow yourself to quite willingly accept beer from anyone if you have no intention of buying one back, let the odd one go of course but generally your poor and hesitant mates are taking the p*ss out of you, they need to 'man up', anyones decision to consume beer should be based on having the means to pay for it, unless they are your children, then there is no financial logic to almost anything.
Click to expand...

Speaks somebody who hasn't got any friends or doesn't know how to derive pleasure from kindness
 


R

Raleigh Chopper

New member
Sep 1, 2011
12,054
Plymouth
Soulman said:
The difference being that the cost of HS2 is unknown really, Abbott and O'Donnelly had final figures.
Click to expand...

Please tell me you are joking, that's a pathetic response, he should have at least known the work to cost, nobody knows the final figure which will be millions more than estimated, a waste of money.
Tories sticking up for Tories make me puke.
 


hans kraay fan club

hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
61,333
Chandlers Ford
BigGully said:
Crap team mates !!

Never should you allow yourself to quite willingly accept beer from anyone if you have no intention of buying one back, let the odd one go of course but generally your poor and hesitant mates are taking the p*ss out of you, they need to 'man up', anyones decision to consume beer should be based on having the means to pay for it, unless they are your children, then there is no financial logic to almost anything.
Click to expand...

Nonsense.

We go to the pub every week after playing, and each week myself or the other 'senior' chap will get the first round (alternately).

Then the other younger lads between them all will get a couple more rounds in. Everyone buys a round, just some far less often than others.

They are my friends, and I like drinking / chatting with them, and am perfectly happy with the arrangement. If one or more stopped coming along at all because they were made to feel bad about not buying 'their share', that would be a real shame.
 




glasfryn

glasfryn

cleaning up cat sick
Nov 29, 2005
20,261
somewhere in Eastbourne
BigGully said:
Crap team mates !!

Never should you allow yourself to quite willingly accept beer from anyone if you have no intention of buying one back, let the odd one go of course but generally your poor and hesitant mates are taking the p*ss out of you, they need to 'man up', anyones decision to consume beer should be based on having the means to pay for it, unless they are your children, then there is no financial logic to almost anything.
Click to expand...

if you have a mate who cannot afford a pint or two you stand him those because you might be in that position one day, its not taking the p1ss its called being mates.
glad I don't play football with you
as you would never get the ball
 


Moshe Gariani

Moshe Gariani

Well-known member
Mar 10, 2005
12,089
hans kraay fan club said:
Nonsense.

We go to the pub every week after playing, and each week myself or the other 'senior' chap will get the first round (alternately).

Then the other younger lads between them all will get a couple more rounds in. Everyone buys a round, just some far less often than others.

They are my friends, and I like drinking / chatting with them, and am perfectly happy with the arrangement. If one or more stopped coming along at all because they were made to feel bad about not buying 'their share', that would be a real shame.
Click to expand...
Well said. Older and better off blokes buying beer for younger and less well off blokes has a long tradition in sports teams.

I have for a few years been trying to slowly pay back some of the generosity previously shown to me by others.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,310
Kalimantan Gull said:
So its basically only a relatively tiny little-bit extra to ensure that all the infrastructure and services of Britain, that stability that helps these people make this money and get these jobs in the first place, gets funded properly.
Click to expand...

just to be pedantic, and to make a bit of point on the way, its only to cover the additional cost of services. cost of additional infrastructure will be coming from borrowing £250bn. we'll all pay for it in the end.
 








B

BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
Its £3.50 a pop, you aint saving their lives you are paying for their booze that they could in all probabilty otherwise buy themselves, no need for your self proclaimed Mother Theresa of the pub world accolade, what is it with you lefties.

We have all done it, but I had forgotten how superior I should have felt, we all know the ones that you feel probably dont want to get involved in a round yet you kind of gently force their hand, no biggie, but we also know the shysters on the shoulder of every round buying person, GET YOUIR OWN MATEY I say !!!

A few of my mates that couldnt afford to over indulge in the round buying culture, would buy their own, insist that they didnt want to accept our offer, I have proper mates and proper team mates and we drink pints of beer and not fruity ciders.
 
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Moshe Gariani

Moshe Gariani

Well-known member
Mar 10, 2005
12,089
BigGully said:
Its £3.50 a pop, you aint saving their lives you are paying for their booze that they could in all probabilty otherwise buy themselves, no need for your self proclaimed Mother Theresa of the pub world accolade, what is it with you lefties.

We have all done it, but I had forgotten how superior I should have felt, we all know the ones that you feel probably dont want to get involved in a round yet you kind of gently force their hand, no biggie, but we also know the shysters on the shoulder of every round buying person, GET YOUR OWN MATEY I say !!!

A few of my mates that couldnt afford to over indulge in the round buying culture, would buy their own, insist that they didnt want to accept our offer, I have proper mates and proper team mates and we drink pints of beer and not fruity ciders.
Click to expand...
It is a shame that Harry Enfield & Paul Whitehouse have retired the Doberman brothers...

"If Corbyn came in here and drank a pint and then left without buying a round I'd say "Oi..! CORBYN. NO...!!! You may be the leader of Her Majesty's Opposition and defender of the working class but you may not drink my beer, in my pub, without taking your allotted turn at the bar"...

"and you'd have right on your side, Frank"
 


B

BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
Moshe Gariani said:
It is a shame that Harry Enfield & Paul Whitehouse have retired the Doberman brothers...

"If Corbyn came in here and drank a pint and then left without buying a round I'd say "Oi..! CORBYN. NO...!!! You may be the leader of Her Majesty's Opposition and defender of the working class but you may not drink my beer, in my pub, without taking your allotted turn at the bar"...

"and you'd have right on your side, Frank"
Click to expand...

Absolutely, I am putting in a seven day approach for you as we speak, can you play sub ???
 


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