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General Election 2017
- Thread starter Giraffe
- Start date
Oil in Venezuela accounts for 95% of exports and 50% of GDP. In Mexico oil is 10% of exports. It's historic failure to invest domestically. This could not have been changed overnight with a high oil price. Now there is no chance with oil at mid $40s a barrel from within Venezuela.
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Common as Mook
Not Posh as Fook
- Jul 26, 2004
- 5,631
Venezuela's plight is absolutely atrocious. Equally atrocious is the abject failure by the likes of Diane Abbott and Owen Jones (who were flown out there to trumpet Chavez's cause) to even reference the plight of the poor people in this country.
Moshe Gariani
Well-known member
- Mar 10, 2005
- 12,092
Is there a version of Godwin's Law that means any discussion of socialism will sooner or later (usually sooner) provoke erroneous comparison with an extreme example...?
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
Our excellent rail services would be ruined for a start.
Moshe Gariani
Well-known member
- Mar 10, 2005
- 12,092
This. And our education system - admired throughout Europe - would go to pot.
No headlines on these things but I suspect that our excellent provision of community facilities for sport and the arts - also the envy of Europe - would be ruined too.
Given a free rein then McDonnell would probably come up with some barmy Marxist crap like increasing inheritance tax and using the money to keep people off the streets and end the need for foodbanks...
It just doesn't bear thinking about.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
Would you say capitalism has worked?
I don't see it. I'm not arguing that socialism does - in my lifetime can't say it's ever been implemented. I've seen the crippling, life ruining results of capitalism though. The end of the 80s was truly ruinous for many people. From '79 until now, has that really demonstrated that socialism is the thing that doesn't work?
Well Moshe, you are a braver man than I, if you want to see that lot in charge.
Mmm, perhaps not braver, but more daft.
Thankfully, not enough people have the faith in them that you do......not even vast swathes of their own MP's. What does that tell you?
ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
I was reading earlier regarding the 'leak' of this and it appears to be either:
A. Labour HQ leaking it to undermine Team Corbyn
B. Team Corbyn leaking it to blame Labour HQ for undermining them.
A. Labour HQ leaking it to undermine Team Corbyn
B. Team Corbyn leaking it to blame Labour HQ for undermining them.
GT49er
Well-known member
This. Education free at the point of delivery and renationalising railways are excellent aims, but the Labour party is incompetent to deliver it (and more importantly Brexit) - and they know they can't possibly win the election so they are promising the moon. I'll wait until we're safely and irrevocably out of the EU, then I'll consider voting Labour again.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,315
this is just flawed rhetoric, the vast majority of wealth is held by morally benevolent people.
you might interpret socialism to mean something else, Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum movement around them do not. they mean old school socialism as a pathway to communism without revolution. what you speak of is essentially Blairism, which the current Labour leadership and many members see as a something to be rejected and purged from the party.
Moshe Gariani
Well-known member
- Mar 10, 2005
- 12,092
Politicians are generally motivated by power and doing what it takes to get people to vote for them in the short term...?
JC has a far more principled approach. He is willing to sacrifice short term political success in the interests of ultimately making a real difference to working people in this country and internationally.
Buzzer
Languidly Clinical
- Oct 1, 2006
- 26,121
Let's take Ecuador then.
26% of GDP and 40% of exports. Not quite so reliant but still heavily so - and by my reckoning a similar share of GDP to Venezuela. Wikipedia has it at 30% and similar from World Bank, not your 50% figure. In 2007 Ecuador and Venezuela had almost identical LPI rankings which measure a country's infrastructure. Ecuador = 2.60 (70th place) and Venezuela = 2.62 (69th place). Fast forward to 2016 and Ecuador had grown its infrastructure to 2.78 (74th place) and Venezuela had shrunk to 2.39 (122nd place). http://lpi.worldbank.org/international/global/2016
And Ecuador GDP over last few years:
A very similar share of GDP and a very similar infrastructure in 2007 so they would have experienced similar challenges, one country managed to improve GDP to record levels and improve infrastructure and the other is on the verge of bankruptcy. One of them operates a mixed economy letting the markets take a large role, the other is a command economy. Seems pretty clear cut to me.
Buzzer
Languidly Clinical
- Oct 1, 2006
- 26,121
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,315
Would you say capitalism has worked?
I don't see it. I'm not arguing that socialism does - in my lifetime can't say it's ever been implemented. I've seen the crippling, life ruining results of capitalism though. The end of the 80s was truly ruinous for many people. From '79 until now, has that really demonstrated that socialism is the thing that doesn't work?
to paraphrase, its the worse form of economy except all the others we've tried. one cant say it has worked, more that it's working on and off. it isn't a final state, its a process where we all gain, albeit some more than others. the poor today are a great deal better off than the poor only a few generations ago, there are more opportunities to improve and better under capitalism than socialism. consider how far China has come since adopting markets and capitalism, compared to the impoverished basket case before the 80's.
bWize
Well-known member
- Nov 6, 2007
- 1,685
I wouldn't count your chickens on the Tories keeping their EU promises just yet... Now that the Tories have UKIP well and truly out of the way I can see them changing their tune on Brexit quite dramaticaly over the next couple of years (if /when they win next month)
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,315
yes, because the socialist dished out cash and created an economy with no incentives for anyone. oil is 50%GDP because they've done bugger all else.
Even though it's actually Capitalism...
tinycowboy
Well-known member
There's no doubt that the Labour party is in a mess. I won't be voting for them, but I do think it's a shame that people are dismissing these policies out of hand as fantasy - we do have levers to raise money through taxation: an extra penny or two in tax for those earning more than £80k would not be significant to those taxpayers, and a rise in corporation tax would be easily accommodated. I haven't done the maths, but some of these policies seem to be affordable and to support a fairer society. People seem to baulk at the idea of a "redistribution of wealth", but this is what all progressive taxation is and I think you'd have to be pretty solipsistic to not want to pay any tax or to encourage a regressive form of taxation.