General Election 2017

midnight_rendezvous · Jun 12, 2017

Is it PotG? said:
...and when the proposed income did not appear due to large CT payers 'sodding off', then Brexit could be blamed.

The narrative that corporations will just up sticks and leave the UK if The Labour Party increase Corporation Tax to 26% (still the lowest in the G7) is preposterous.

This corporation-flight argument relies on calling 26% "high" when it's actually low.

It assumes that shifting huge businesses between countries is a costless exercise (or at least significantly cheaper than just paying a slightly higher rate of tax on their profits). Just imagine how much it would cost Rolls Royce to relocate their jet engine factory in Derby to another country. Is that really going to end up saving them money?

It totally ignores the fact that major corporations have not fled countries like the United States, Japan and Germany because of their higher-than-26% Corporation Tax rates (it's almost as if Corporation Tax rate is not the only determining factor in where companies are located isn't it?).

lawros left foot · Jun 12, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
On the flip side, over 100 respected economists wrote a letter saying that Britain needs a change of direction away from seven years of ruinous Tory austerity dogma, and towards an the investment based recovery strategy detailed in the Labour Party manifesto.

Yeah, but take no notice of them, everyone knows those economists are Marxist Commie vineyards.

How does spellchecker change bustards to vineyards??

East Preston Gull · Jun 12, 2017

lawros left foot said:
You couldn't be more patronising if you tried.

My daughter had a Uni 're-union weekend in the smoke this last weekend, and, naturally the discussion was all about the election.
Out of all her friends that were there about 15-20, most work in London, and all, without exception voted, unlike the referendum. None voted Tory, not one, a couple of greens, three or four Liberals, the rest, Labour. They left Uni to long ago to get the rebate, and anyway, their main reasons for voting the way they did was property prices, including rents, and Brexit. They trust Labour more over Brexit, than the Tories.

I get that, but if they seriously think Corbyn and his Socialist utopia is going to solve things they are as deluded as me thinking my Brexit will happen.

I think the youngsters get too much involved in social media and campaigns by Facebook.

Corbyn is a complete fraud and will do nothing for house prices and wages.
When that clown Gordon Brown brought in the Socialist minimum wage, everything changed, it became the maximum wage and every person had a value. Businesses structured their wage bill around child and working tax credits. Out went incentives and if a British citizen did not want, or could not afford to work for that pathetic wage, he or she could sit home and guarantee an income through tax credits. The agricultural, retail and catering industries could say **** you I will import labour from abroad. The construction industry, which I work in was the worst offender of all.

Corbyns socialism does **** all for the working man, it destroys them.

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Guinness Boy · Jun 12, 2017

Panorama on the election right now. Lovely stuff. *rubs hands*

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Is it PotG? · Jun 12, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
The narrative that corporations will just up sticks and leave the UK if The Labour Party increase Corporation Tax to 26% (still the lowest in the G7) is preposterous.

This corporation-flight argument relies on calling 26% "high" when it's actually low.

It assumes that shifting huge businesses between countries is a costless exercise (or at least significantly cheaper than just paying a slightly higher rate of tax on their profits). Just imagine how much it would cost Rolls Royce to relocate their jet engine factory in Derby to another country. Is that really going to end up saving them money?

It totally ignores the fact that major corporations have not fled countries like the United States, Japan and Germany because of their higher-than-26% Corporation Tax rates (it's almost as if Corporation Tax rate is not the only determining factor in where companies are located isn't it?).

But it is more than simply less income from companies willing to pay, such measures have a drastic effect upon the economy as a whole. Combine that with a minimum wage of £10 p/h...

https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/the-effect-of-labours-corporation-tax.

"The effect of this is difficult to quantify, but to get an idea we can look at the time when corporation tax was last at the 26% proposed by Labour. That was in 2011/12, and the tax at that level raised around £41 billion[1]. Add on inflation and that would be around £44.5 billion today. However in fact, with the rate cut to 20%[2], the tax revenues have now soared to almost £50 billion a year.[3]

Although the rate is now significantly lower than it was in 2011, the corporation tax collected is actually higher because the lower tax rates have encouraged companies to set up or expand, or to set up operations in the UK.

If that trend continues, the government’s proposed 17% might raise around £52.5 billion, £8 billion more than it raised when rates were last at Labour’s proposed 26% (all figures at today’s prices).

Assuming that trend works the same in reverse, the proposed rate increase to 26% would be expected to reduce corporation tax revenues by £8 billion, not increase them by £20 billion, as the UK becomes a less attractive place for business investment."

midnight_rendezvous · Jun 12, 2017

Is it PotG? said:
But it is more than simply less income from companies willing to pay, such measures have a drastic effect upon the economy as a whole. Combine that with a minimum wage of £10 p/h...

https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/the-effect-of-labours-corporation-tax.

"The effect of this is difficult to quantify, but to get an idea we can look at the time when corporation tax was last at the 26% proposed by Labour. That was in 2011/12, and the tax at that level raised around £41 billion[1]. Add on inflation and that would be around £44.5 billion today. However in fact, with the rate cut to 20%[2], the tax revenues have now soared to almost £50 billion a year.[3]

Although the rate is now significantly lower than it was in 2011, the corporation tax collected is actually higher because the lower tax rates have encouraged companies to set up or expand, or to set up operations in the UK.

If that trend continues, the government’s proposed 17% might raise around £52.5 billion, £8 billion more than it raised when rates were last at Labour’s proposed 26% (all figures at today’s prices).

Assuming that trend works the same in reverse, the proposed rate increase to 26% would be expected to reduce corporation tax revenues by £8 billion, not increase them by £20 billion, as the UK becomes a less attractive place for business investment."

The argument that "the lower the tax rate the higher the tax take". This is wrong on two fundamental levels. It's contradicted by reality because the Corporation Tax take has flat-lined since the Tories slashed Corporation tax from 28% in 2010 to 19% now, even though corporate profits have been rising. Then there's also the fact that this over-simplistic "lower tax = higher tax take" idiom completely breaks down when the rate approaches zero.

Is it PotG? · Jun 12, 2017

midnight_rendezvous said:
The argument that "the lower the tax rate the higher the tax take". This is wrong on two fundamental levels. It's contradicted by reality because the Corporation Tax take has flat-lined since the Tories slashed Corporation tax from 28% in 2010 to 19% now, even though corporate profits have been rising. Then there's also the fact that this over-simplistic "lower tax = higher tax take" idiom completely breaks down when the rate approaches zero.

But the plan is to go up, not to approach zero?

It has flatlined because it is finite.

spring hall convert · Jun 12, 2017

East Preston Gull said:
I think the youngsters get too much involved in social media and campaigns by Facebook.

What campaigns by Facebook are you talking about? I wasn't aware of any.

lawros left foot · Jun 12, 2017

East Preston Gull said:
I get that, but if they seriously think Corbyn and his Socialist utopia is going to solve things they are as deluded as me thinking my Brexit will happen.

I think the youngsters get too much involved in social media and campaigns by Facebook.

Corbyn is a complete fraud and will do nothing for house prices and wages.
When that clown Gordon Brown brought in the Socialist minimum wage, everything changed, it became the maximum wage and every person had a value. Businesses structured their wage bill around child and working tax credits. Out went incentives and if a British citizen did not want, or could not afford to work for that pathetic wage, he or she could sit home and guarantee an income through tax credits. The agricultural, retail and catering industries could say **** you I will import labour from abroad. The construction industry, which I work in was the worst offender of all.

Corbyns socialism does **** all for the working man, it destroys them.

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So, why have the Cons increased the minimum wage. We have never had a socialist Government in this country, some have paid lip service to it ,but, we've never actually had one.the closest was in 1945,.
I think for the 5th/6th richest country in the world, having nurses, ffs, nurses using food banks is criminal. To have adults of 30 plus still living at home with their parents because they can't afford, not only to buy a house, but can't afford to rent even.
When I was in hospital recently, nurses telling me how bad the cuts were, now, I will admit some of the problems with the Nhs, is done to Labour's PFIs, but , an awful lot more is down to realtime cuts.
20,000 police officers cut, and very senior coppers saying it is affecting police efficiency, senior coppers are hardly left wing agitators.
As I say, we are in the top half dozen of richest countries in the world, and yet, we have public service workers who haven't had a real pay rise for seven years, we have over a million of our citizens using food banks, we've had disabled people forced to work for their benefit, that have died on the job, and still they cut disability provision, even IDS, who had been the architect of pips, said it was unfair.

These are just a few of the reasons people voted for Cornyn.

Guinness Boy · Jun 12, 2017

East Preston Gull said:
I think the youngsters get too much involved in social media and campaigns by Facebook.

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Funny that. Because Cambridge Analytica gamed social media to get Brexit & see Trump elected. I guess people must have wised up.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ery-hijacked-democracy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

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CherryInHove · Jun 12, 2017

I like the fact that lots of people say it's all about the young people wanting their free stuff as everyone I work with in London voted for Labour. These are all people who will have to pay more tax under Corbyn's plans, yet voted for it anyway, as it would make the country better and that's worth paying a little extra for.

East Preston Gull · Jun 12, 2017

lawros left foot said:
So, why have the Cons increased the minimum wage. We have never had a socialist Government in this country, some have paid lip service to it ,but, we've never actually had one.the closest was in 1945,.
I think for the 5th/6th richest country in the world, having nurses, ffs, nurses using food banks is criminal. To have adults of 30 plus still living at home with their parents because they can't afford, not only to buy a house, but can't afford to rent even.
When I was in hospital recently, nurses telling me how bad the cuts were, now, I will admit some of the problems with the Nhs, is done to Labour's PFIs, but , an awful lot more is down to realtime cuts.
20,000 police officers cut, and very senior coppers saying it is affecting police efficiency, senior coppers are hardly left wing agitators.
As I say, we are in the top half dozen of richest countries in the world, and yet, we have public service workers who haven't had a real pay rise for seven years, we have over a million of our citizens using food banks, we've had disabled people forced to work for their benefit, that have died on the job, and still they cut disability provision, even IDS, who had been the architect of pips, said it was unfair.

These are just a few of the reasons people voted for Cornyn.

And how is Corbyn going to solve this?

I don't doubt that there are people using foodbanks, but in a lot of cases it is a case of "build it and they will come"

As I said in a previous post, my wife and I earnt just under 26k between us last year and we are considered poor. We have struggled and 3 years ago we earnt 18k between us.

The only thing that caused this was Labours minimum wage. An hourly rate became concrete and corporate budgets were set around this. It became a maximum wage for all.

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beorhthelm · Jun 12, 2017

lawros left foot said:
I think for the 5th/6th richest country in the world, having nurses, ffs, nurses using food banks is criminal. To have adults of 30 plus still living at home with their parents because they can't afford, not only to buy a house, but can't afford to rent even.
When I was in hospital recently, nurses telling me how bad the cuts were, now, I will admit some of the problems with the Nhs, is done to Labour's PFIs, but , an awful lot more is down to realtime cuts.
20,000 police officers cut, and very senior coppers saying it is affecting police efficiency, senior coppers are hardly left wing agitators.
As I say, we are in the top half dozen of richest countries in the world, and yet, we have public service workers who haven't had a real pay rise for seven years, we have over a million of our citizens using food banks, we've had disabled people forced to work for their benefit, that have died on the job, and still they cut disability provision, even IDS, who had been the architect of pips, said it was unfair.

These are just a few of the reasons people voted for Cornyn.

would you pay 5-10p more income tax for all these things? or if not employed, expect those that are to do so? for 15 years we've kept tax low while state spending increased, unprepared for economic changes. everyone has an agenda to spend more money on their area, be it police, NHS, all very deserving. Labours policy is to prioritise 18-25 yo and borrow tens of billions, rather than deal with the economic issues. there wouldnt be 20k more coppers on the streets and nurses might get an extra %, the foodbanks close their doors, but one day today's 18-25 would pick up the bill.

Deleted member 22389 · Jun 12, 2017

East Preston Gull said:
I get that, but if they seriously think Corbyn and his Socialist utopia is going to solve things they are as deluded as me thinking my Brexit will happen.

I think the youngsters get too much involved in social media and campaigns by Facebook.

Corbyn is a complete fraud and will do nothing for house prices and wages.
When that clown Gordon Brown brought in the Socialist minimum wage, everything changed, it became the maximum wage and every person had a value. Businesses structured their wage bill around child and working tax credits. Out went incentives and if a British citizen did not want, or could not afford to work for that pathetic wage, he or she could sit home and guarantee an income through tax credits. The agricultural, retail and catering industries could say **** you I will import labour from abroad. The construction industry, which I work in was the worst offender of all.

Corbyns socialism does **** all for the working man, it destroys them.

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Labour won't solve a bloody thing. You would think people would have learned their lessons from last time. Nothing will change.

lawros left foot · Jun 12, 2017

beorhthelm said:
would you pay 5-10p more income tax for all these things? or if not employed, expect those that are to do so? for 15 years we've kept tax low while state spending increased, unprepared for economic changes. everyone has an agenda to spend more money on their area, be it police, NHS, all very deserving. Labours policy is to prioritise 18-25 yo and borrow tens of billions, rather than deal with the economic issues. there wouldnt be 20k more coppers on the streets and nurses might get an extra %, the foodbanks close their doors, but one day today's 18-21 would pick up the bill.

I would start by raising income tax by 2p for lower rate, 5 p for upper rate, CT up to 26%, inheritance tax to start at half a million.
Invest in infrastructure, loans to cover this are like a mortgage, good debt if you like. Remove Private schools charitable status, do you realise, private schools get 80% rebate on business rates,state schools pay the full 100%? Tax heavily buy to let property, freeing up the bottom step on the property ladder for our youngsters, this would have to be managed by someone far cleverer than me, but, then again, I'm only an ordinary bloke, and these are just stuff I have thought of off the top of my head

And I forgot, really go after tax dodgers, the legal but immoral, and the plain old illegal. The big multinational companies must be made to understand, if they want to trade in this country they must pay their share, no sweetheart deals,and no offshore holding companies

Oh, and remain in the EU, cos if we don't we're buggered who Evers in charge.

Guinness Boy · Jun 12, 2017

bashlsdir said:
Labour won't solve a bloody thing. You would think people would have learned their lessons from last time. Nothing will change.

Nothing will change?

Labour haven't been in charge for 7 years. In that time the Albion have gone from League 1 Withdean to Premier League Amex, a man from Sussex has orbited the earth in a space station, I've had a child who is now in year one at school and you earned and won a Brexit referendum. If things are so bad for you they need changing right now that's either the Tories' fault or yours.

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CherryInHove · Jun 12, 2017

bashlsdir said:
Labour won't solve a bloody thing. You would think people would have learned their lessons from last time. Nothing will change.

Is that from the last time where Labour got the deficit down to < £10B whilst taking millions of people out of poverty?

Eeyore · Jun 12, 2017

Mustafa said:

She does look like Arsene Wenger's twin sister.

lawros left foot · Jun 12, 2017

Guinness Boy said:
Nothing will change?

Labour haven't been in charge for 7 years. In that time the Albion have gone from League 1 Withdean to Premier League Amex, a man from Sussex has orbited the earth in a space station, I've had a child who is now in year one at school and you earned and won a Brexit referendum. If things are so bad for you they need changing right now that's either the Tories' fault or yours.

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Brilliant post, it made me chuckle.

Questions · Jun 12, 2017

East Preston Gull said:
We all grow up eventually and priorities change. I can remember when I was young and part of the rave scene going on a March in London off my face and rallying against thatcher and the criminal justice bill.
Listened to the older ravers and had a tear up with the old bill.

I grew up, started working and paying a mortgage and saw others around me swinging the lead whilst I was grafting away.

Some of Corbyn babies will stay left wing but most will move on into society and see sense&#55357;&#56841;

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It sounds like your politics changed not your priorities.

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