Term time Dad loses in the Supreme Court

Iggle Piggle · Apr 6, 2017

Machiavelli said:
So, have I got this right?
-- it's all just a competition to work harder and longer (I won't throw in for less pay, worse conditions, more insecure contracts, etc)
There is an alternative: we could get together and back a political party that advocated the reduction of working hours, provided better conditions, and secure contracts. This has happened in the past, but we're light years away from it happening in the future.

No, no competition. If I could back to the 90's where I did not an awful lot, I'd be pretty happy.

I just wanted to pull up Pythagoros on his assertion that 13 weeks holiday equates to 40 days off. If you are going to make a point about how hard you work, at least make it believable.

Wilko · Apr 6, 2017

Triggaaar said:
My mistake, I thought you were talking general professional office jobs, not yours.
6 summer, 2 Christmas, 2 Easter, 3 single week half terms = 13. Are you a maths teacher?

No. I work in a school that has 2 day half terms not full weeks.

Wilko · Apr 6, 2017

Iggle Piggle said:
Ah Ok. You are marking books on Xmas day. My mistake.

I take it you teach English then? (or ****ing English in your case?)

No, not once have I said I mark books on Xmas day.

Tell me your job then. I can then tell you what you do all day and how many hours you work.

Surrey_Albion · Apr 6, 2017

BensGrandad said:
As stated the fine is just a holiday tax because in the case of most families it is cheaper to pay the fine than the increased holiday charges even with 2 or 3 children being included in the holiday and the fines. My youngest son has 3 children ages 8, 6 and 4 so paying the fine for the 8 and 6 year old saves him money on all 3.

What about the poor c*** that look after the children everyday then have no choice but to holiday in term time in teachers?
Maybe it's the holiday companies in the wrong?
Also we only hear half the story with absenses yes some people have been fined when there's a serious excuse to not be at school but they are students who have a history of "time off" it's a bit " cry wolf"

lost in london · Apr 6, 2017

Surrey_Albion said:
You will probably find buerocracy and health and safety made this decision NOT the Teaching staff, also are you aware of the huge amount of work put in during "enormous " holidays? Or how would you feel if your child's teacher said " sorry I'm off for the next week's because it's cheaper for me to go on holiday". I hate people moaning when they have no idea what teachers do, are you aware there are not enough teachers because NO one wants to do the job anymore? Are you also aware of the blameless arrogant parents who take no responsibility for their kids or their kids behaviour and blame a teacher for it? Or that some parents use school just for free childcare? When you want after school clubs and breakfast clubs for your kids do you know who has to run them, teachers , so they're at work before you and back from work after you. If you want to talk out of your arse you might find it easier if you stand on your hands!!!

Blimey. Chill out. Sounds like you need a six week holiday in the summer.

(that's a little joke there to lighten the mood).

If the school communicated the reasons and why this is the only possible option that would be great. They don't, so the reality is that there's a whole town of parents saying 'for f*cks sake' and have to book time off work or call in grandparents, childminders etc.

As with everything, communication and explanation is key.

For the record though, I agree with with the court's decision - we have to have a firm rule, discretion just doesn't cut it and only creates more aggro for head teachers with parents moaning about why x was allowed time off but their little Jonny wasn't.

Wilko · Apr 6, 2017

beorhthelm said:
why are you persisting with this flawed analogy, when you know "meetings" is what constitutes work for substantial amount of business, even if they are often frivolous and unproductive. also if you believe that teachers are only having 40 days holiday when there are 13 weeks (65 days) school holidays, you're only proving the point that they could do the training in the ~20-25 days they are at work but school is closed.

Once again. You do not get it. Can you tell me another profession where you are expected to have training days in your own personal holidays?

Wilko · Apr 6, 2017

Iggle Piggle said:
No, no competition. If I could back to the 90's where I did not an awful lot, I'd be pretty happy.

I just wanted to pull up Pythagoros on his assertion that 13 weeks holiday equates to 40 days off. If you are going to make a point about how hard you work, at least make it believable.

Oh my days you are thick. CHILDREN get 12 or 13 weeks off a year. Teachers are ADULTS. Do you understand yet?

Moshe Gariani · Apr 6, 2017

Moshe Jnr has missed loads of days of Primary School for various holidays/events and it hasn't done him any harm.

The fact that he gets hardly any meaningful homework and that we get little or no specific feedback on his progress are far more significant than a few missed days.

He'll be off on April 21st for the Norwich match. I'll make it easier on the school by phoning in sick for him so they don't have to put down an "unauthorised absence" on their stats.

Iggle Piggle · Apr 6, 2017

Wilko said:
No, not once have I said I mark books on Xmas day.

Tell me your job then. I can then tell you what you do all day and how many hours you work.

I run training courses in anger management for Teachers with chips on their shoulder.

Business is through the roof.

Bold Seagull · Apr 6, 2017

Moshe Gariani said:
Moshe Jnr has missed loads of days of Primary School for various holidays/events and it hasn't done him any harm.

The fact that he gets hardly any meaningful homework and that we get little or no specific feedback on his progress are far more significant than a few missed days.

He'll be off on April 21st for the Norwich match. I'll make it easier on the school by phoning in sick for him so they don't have to put down an "unauthorised absence" on their stats.

Its not about the kid having the time off, it is the general disruption to the class if multiple kids have days off. Moshe Jnr was probably fine because the teacher had to spend time ensuring they caught up on what they missed. Someone else missed out on that teaching time. Multiply that by a few kids and you do have an impact on the class. It is amazing how people think it is just about their kid.

father_and_son · Apr 6, 2017

portlock seagull said:
Sounds like you were on the treadmill, working long hours in and commuting London to afford school fees etc. Did it ultimately cancel itself out i.e. you never see the kids because you're working so hard to give them 'the best' before you stopped all that and now have a better work-life balance?

Not really. I work in a niche of an industry that is extremely London-centric so there are very few decent jobs outside of a particular district. I was already working in London when he was born and I made the decision on his education when I earned enough money there to be able to send him to a private school (because he is academic and it provides an environment that he thrives in). He is only with me part time anyway and I have always flexed my time as much as possible to be able to spend as much time as possible with him.

I have now taken the choice to stop working for someone else and work for myself and it so happens that I am able to work with one of the few companies based locally. School fees are now a stretch so other things have been sacrificed - like holidays - term time or otherwise. It's a short term loss for a long term gain (hopefully) career-wise but still providing continuity for him.

The other isn't academic, being far more interested in drama, music and sport than anything that requires reading a book. She was a financial/time drain in different ways... travelling all over the country for her gymnastics/football/musicals/etc.

el punal · Apr 6, 2017

Wilko said:
I do not know where to start with this but I will try:

1) Do you really think a school can work with a H&S issue, imagine the complaints if a kid got injured
2) A school holiday for children does not mean a holiday for staff
3) An inset day is not a day off for staff, it is training day in exactly the same way all companies and businesses have training days
4) How is sport not beneficial or educational? No wonder there is an obesity crisis in this country

Never let a well informed response get in the way of an ill-informed rant. Good post. :thumbsup:

wehatepalace · Apr 6, 2017

wellquickwoody said:
So this friend/parent is unable to take leave during the six week summer break, the two week Easter break AND the two week Xmas break? And seeing as a foreign holiday can be just a week how about the three 1 week half term breaks? He is either a liar or a fool.

Pretty much as I understand it, his company peak times are school holidays, and he knew the rules when he started.....before they had children.
Definitely not a liar......maybe he is a fool.....or maybe he really enjoys his job !

Sussexscots · Apr 6, 2017

It's the 'one size fits all' approach which is at fault.

It's clearly irresponsible to take a sixteen year old out of school in the time leading up to exams. Less so if it involves taking a child at Junior School away for a few days before the end of normal term time when the normal classroom routines are likely to be less rigorous.

Head teachers should be trusted to assess and judge each case on its individual merits.

Iggle Piggle · Apr 6, 2017

Wilko said:
Oh my days you are thick. CHILDREN get 12 or 13 weeks off a year. Teachers are ADULTS. Do you understand yet?

Given how angry you get with people questioning your maths on the Internet, I genuinely hope you are nowhere near my kids for teaching purposes.

Machiavelli · Apr 6, 2017

Bold Seagull said:
Its not about the kid having the time off, it is the general disruption to the class if multiple kids have days off. Moshe Jnr was probably fine because the teacher had to spend time ensuring they caught up on what they missed. Someone else missed out on that teaching time. Multiply that by a few kids and you do have an impact on the class. It is amazing how people think it is just about their kid.

For some, to even think of their kid and beyond themselves is a stretch but, you're right, people have bought into Thatcher's nonsense that we're just individuals, and our actions have no broader consequences.

Moshe Gariani · Apr 6, 2017

Bold Seagull said:
Its not about the kid having the time off, it is the general disruption to the class if multiple kids have days off. Moshe Jnr was probably fine because the teacher had to spend time ensuring they caught up on what they missed. Someone else missed out on that teaching time. Multiply that by a few kids and you do have an impact on the class. It is amazing how people think it is just about their kid.

I understand that argument but find it very, very hard to believe in the context of primary education.

What he has learned at school in the past 6 years wouldn't fill a decent sized exercise book.

beorhthelm · Apr 6, 2017

Wilko said:
Once again. You do not get it. Can you tell me another profession where you are expected to have training days in your own personal holidays?

i didn't say they should. you said they have 40 days holiday, while anyone can work out that 13 weeks is 65 days. so its your inconsistency, or different scenario to normal (public school? foreign school) that needs to be explained.

Chicken Run · Apr 6, 2017

Moshe Gariani said:
Moshe Jnr has missed loads of days of Primary School for various holidays/events and it hasn't done him any harm.

The fact that he gets hardly any meaningful homework and that we get little or no specific feedback on his progress are far more significant than a few missed days.

He'll be off on April 21st for the Norwich match. I'll make it easier on the school by phoning in sick for him so they don't have to put down an "unauthorised absence" on their stats.

Well done....... you ****ing hero!

BensGrandad · Apr 6, 2017

Surrey_Albion said:
What about the poor c*** that look after the children everyday then have no choice but to holiday in term time in teachers?
Maybe it's the holiday companies in the wrong?
Also we only hear half the story with absenses yes some people have been fined when there's a serious excuse to not be at school but they are students who have a history of "time off" it's a bit " cry wolf"

Recently my grandhildrens school added an inset day on the Friday prior to the half term and on the Monday following thus allowing the teachers the complete week to go away if they wished and obviously the children as well. My argument is not with the rule just pointing out that the fine proves ineffective in stopping it happening and as such is treated as a tax by parents on holidays that generally they pay in order to save a greater amount of money. Is there any record of how much money is collected in fines and to whom it goes.

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