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  1. #81
    Resident pedant Triggaaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzer View Post
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    Utter tosh:
    Thanks for the warning.
    As others have said, you've ignored the seasons where Murray has scored loads of goals
    I haven't ignored that, it wasn't relevant to the point. Yes, Murray went on to have a great season. CMS might have had one too if he hadn't got injured and played in a 442. Murray's record before his great season was worse than Craig's, so there's certainly no proof that CMS couldn't have done it.

    and as for 11 goals in a struggling side, that Posh side was completely geared towards CMS's style of play, they played all-out attack and he still didn't score. The fact that that Posh were relegated doesn't automatically equate to strikers not scoring. The same season Hooper got 19 for Scunthorpe and they finished 4th from bottom. This season Tammy Abraham has scored 19 goals and Brizzle City are 3rd from bottom.
    Without watching the way Posh played that season, we can only guess. We have no idea whether they were able to create chances or not that season.
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    • #82
      Members Weststander's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Triggaaar View Post
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      What that shows is that a player could go from 6 goals (or whatever it was) in a season to 30. If Murray had been badly injured after his first year with Palace then people would look back and say it's been proven that he wasn't good enough for the Championship. Buzzer was trying to show that CMS wasn't good enough, but I just highlighted that he did better than Murray a lot of the time, and we don't know how a fit CMS would have done in a team like ours.

      Do they? I've never seen anyone say that.
      What we do know is that CMS before his injury, had the likes at different times of Vicente, Buckley, Orlando, Lopez, Bridge, LuaLua, Calderon, Barnes and Noone as team mates. All good to outstanding players, and one way or another creators in games.

      CMS only scored 21 league goals over 63 starts, plus sub appearances, before the injury, over those first two seasons.

      In contrast Murray scored 30 in a single promotion season for CP, and 18 for us already, as well as being an outstanding target man and providing plenty of assists. The stats don't lie - a class above CMS at Championship level.
    • #83

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      Quote Originally Posted by Triggaaar View Post
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      I haven't ignored that, it wasn't relevant to the point..
      Yes you did ignore it, it was very relevant. It shows that Murray was able to score goals in the Championship, something that CMS struggled with despite almost 4 full seasons of trying.

      Quote Originally Posted by Triggaaar View Post
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      Without watching the way Posh played that season, we can only guess. We have no idea whether they were able to create chances or not that season.
      Well....that's where you're wrong. We DO know the number of shots P'boro had that season and comparative to other teams in the same league.

      http://www.footstats.co.uk/index.cfm?task=league_shots

      And I did a little bit of analysis. If you work out shots per goal then that will give you a pretty good idea of just how clinical or profligate the strikers are. I also compared the P'boro strike rate compared with League 1 in order to check whether they are just a team that requires lots of chances to get goals. It showed that their strike-rates were much better in League 1 than in the Championship. The evidence is pretty clear. CMS was not a very good Championship player for P'boro.



      Slight typo in the graphic. Should be for seasons 08/09, 09/10 and 10/11.
      Last edited by Buzzer; 16-03-2017 at 22:40.
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    • #84
      Members Simster's Avatar
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      Team Buzzer.

      CMS was average in his first season, got worse, got injured, eventually declining to rank mediocrity. First touch of a blind rapist, poor finisher, the occasional worldie. Wish we'd never signed him but like Buzzer i found myself thinking that two thirds into his second season here.

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      Calderon is the type of guy that if your daughter married, you would worry that she was not good enough for him.
    • #85
      Resident pedant Triggaaar's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Weststander View Post
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      What we do know is that CMS before his injury, had the likes at different times of Vicente, Buckley, Orlando, Lopez, Bridge, LuaLua, Calderon, Barnes and Noone as team mates. All good to outstanding players, and one way or another creators in games.
      But we played him as a target man.
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    • #86
      Resident pedant Triggaaar's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Buzzer View Post
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      Yes you did ignore it, it was very relevant. It shows that Murray was able to score goals in the Championship, something that CMS struggled with despite almost 4 full seasons of trying.
      It showed that Murray could score when in the right team playing the right way - the same player that only scored 6 the year before. CMS

      Well....that's where you're wrong. We DO know the number of shots P'boro had that season and comparative to other teams in the same league.
      I didn't say we don't know the number of shots they had. If a team is struggling to break the opponents down, they might shoot from distance more. That won't tell you much about CMS.

      You've said what you think, I disagree with you.
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    • #87
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      Just out of interest I thought I would compare CMS's record with us and Peterborough up until the point he left us with a striker people would not even dare to claim is/was not Championship standard...Zamora.


      Zamora: 2nd tier: 129 36 - 0.279 goals per game
      3rd tier: 45 28 - 0.622 goals per game
      CMS: 2nd tier: 152 31 - 0.204 goals per game
      3rd tier: 91 50 - 0.549 goals per game

      Not a million miles apart really. Feel free to check the stats, which were pulled from wikipedia.
    • #88
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      Quote Originally Posted by Buzzer View Post
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      Yes you did ignore it, it was very relevant. It shows that Murray was able to score goals in the Championship, something that CMS struggled with despite almost 4 full seasons of trying.



      Well....that's where you're wrong. We DO know the number of shots P'boro had that season and comparative to other teams in the same league.

      http://www.footstats.co.uk/index.cfm?task=league_shots

      And I did a little bit of analysis. If you work out shots per goal then that will give you a pretty good idea of just how clinical or profligate the strikers are. I also compared the P'boro strike rate compared with League 1 in order to check whether they are just a team that requires lots of chances to get goals. It showed that their strike-rates were much better in League 1 than in the Championship. The evidence is pretty clear. CMS was not a very good Championship player for P'boro.

      11.
      Er, no. That doesn't prove anything about CMS per se.
      It's indicative of Posh finding it harder to make the same quality of chances in a higher division - quelle surprise!. That may well have resulted in a far higher proportion of their attempts being "hit & hope" efforts from mid-fielders 20-plus yards from goal, for example.

      We will never know how CMS may have fared if playing in front of a championship quality team that was set up to exploit his strengths (e.g. 4-4-2 or a full-on counter attacking set-up).
      FWIW I think at his best he was probably good enough for mid-table Championship. But those stats don't prove anything on their own.
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    • #89
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      Cant believe 9 pages about CMS. One of our worst buys. Out of his depth in championship. Got fed up with paying to watch him run around aimlesly for 90mins. Something we could all have done with training every day. Was popular because he ran around and was last of pitch.
    • #90
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      I appreciated Craig's tireless and consistent effort during his time at the Albion, but in all fairness that is all it was without the end product. As others have mentioned he seemed an affable person, one who the fans could warm too. That said I never understood considering they were both at the Albion the same time the dogs abuse poor old Ashley Barnes got with a similar effort and better end product, he was by far the better all round player at a fraction of the price.

      CMS is a league one player at best and suited Peterbroughs attack attack philosophy at the time, there is an old saying "throw enough shit and eventually it will stick" kinda applies playing against league one defences and in the end that's why we and others wanted him without actually taking into account the quality of opposition he was playing against week in week out.

      Anyway what do I know.... I rated Barnes...
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