Paul Barber - ID checks of fans at away games?

n1 gull · Mar 8, 2017

Weststander said:
Aren't the cheating small minority depriving some fans who regularly put the miles, money and time into away game, from their rightful chance to see the more popular away games?

Of course you can look at it that way or another is; does asking football supporters for ID feel a like an overreaction, draconian infringement of their civil liberties that remind us of the Thatcherite anti football narrative that long ago died?

PILTDOWN MAN · Mar 8, 2017

Weststander said:
Aren't the cheating small minority depriving some fans who regularly put the miles, money and time into away game, from their rightful chance to see the more popular away games?

But those who do put the miles in and follow most of the games will always be entitled to the first batch of tickets. That's why they are set the points totals.

Bozza · Mar 8, 2017

Given this change is not going to impact, nor be noticed by, almost everyone on here, I do wonder on the reaction if the club had proposed another approach which would impact everyone:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...lub-prevent-supporters-buying-selling-on.html

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...r-news/man-city-celtic-queue-tickets-11951492

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/liverpool-consult-fans-over-new-7406413

PILTDOWN MAN · Mar 8, 2017

portlock seagull said:
But it's not abuse!! The word is unnecessary as is the whole shit storm Barber has unwisely caused. Very few probably do this, the vast majority of incidents that do are almost certainly exchanges within a group of friends or family, at face value and because eg Auntie Ethel died, little Johnny has a cold or Someone has now got to work. All of which are on the day type problems we all encounter. There is life beyong football Mr Barber!! Ow and lets not forget the club constantly wants its ****ing cake and eat it re: Sky fixture changes which wastes numerous peoples ST's inc mine each season but especially the last two. Christ, if the club thinks they're being abused they'd do well to try looking at things from fans perspective. Nope, Barber has really ducked up here with his sledgehammer approach. And we wont be druv. Barber OUT!

Agree especially with the fixture changes.

Bozza · Mar 8, 2017

clippedgull said:
Norwich do an away season ticket. I wonder if something like that will be introduced at some stage that may help people like yourself that can't regularly make it to the Amex?

There already is. It's called Platinum and has, I believe, around 70 people using it. The club have done an occasional special event for this group in recognition of their commitment.

"a brand new away season ticket (that includes the auto-cup scheme) called Platinum membership. This is something many supporters have asked the club to introduce, and it will provide a hassle-free option for those who want attend every game – be it Accrington or Arsenal. Platinum and Gold memberships do not have upfront fees. "

Hampster Gull · Mar 8, 2017

Bozza said:
There already is. It's called Platinum and has, I believe, around 70 people using it. The club have done an occasional special event for this group in recognition of their commitment.

"a brand new away season ticket (that includes the auto-cup scheme) called Platinum membership. This is something many supporters have asked the club to introduce, and it will provide a hassle-free option for those who want attend every game – be it Accrington or Arsenal. Platinum and Gold memberships do not have upfront fees. "

They also have to buy a home season ticket too i thought

clippedgull · Mar 8, 2017

Bozza said:
There already is. It's called Platinum and has, I believe, around 70 people using it. The club have done an occasional special event for this group in recognition of their commitment.

"a brand new away season ticket (that includes the auto-cup scheme) called Platinum membership. This is something many supporters have asked the club to introduce, and it will provide a hassle-free option for those who want attend every game – be it Accrington or Arsenal. Platinum and Gold memberships do not have upfront fees. "

Ah! Fair enough. That completely escaped my notice!

SUA Seagull · Mar 8, 2017

My son and I are STHs and always seek to attend all home games. However, occasionally (2-3 times per season, max) either he or I are stuck at work and so, in such circumstances, what is the club's view as to whether we can take a mate (free of charge, as we've already paid for the ticket) to use what would otherwise be a vacant seat? My read of the Season Ticket T&Cs (for 2017/18) suggests that the club's "express written consent" is required, which is nigh on impossible for me to accomplish as - in the case of my son's absence - I often don't know until well after 5pm on a match day!

Also, what happens if, for example, two people want to share a ST because they can only attend half of the games each? Presumably, only one of them can be named as the STH and so will they need to seek the club's prior written consent in such a scenario?

El Presidente · Mar 8, 2017

I've read PB's epistle and this does raise a number of points. Some of which are within the remit of the club and others not.

1: It reinforces that football fans are viewed by the authorities as second class citizens. You can buy and transfer tickets for other sporting events, and secondary markets exist for these, often organised by large ticketing organisations, so why is football different?

The answer is that this (and previous) governments still have the paternalistic view that football fans are all potential hooligans and need monitoring to a greater degree than those of other sports.

2: There's an assumption (which is fair) that we have an excellent chance of promotion next season and there will be a scramble for tickets for certain fixtures, we all know what they are. I strongly suspect that first dibs on those tickets will go to sponsors and commercial partners of the club, and then to those who are earn loyalty points.

I'm not saying it's wrong, we are realistic enough to know sponsors pay money and expect privileges as a result. You only have to look at how FIFA and UEFA hand out a large proportion of tickets to commercial chums for the WC and Euro competitions to see that money talks, and those who were at Rotherham last night don't take priority over American Express et al.

3: By the very nature of being able to buy a ticket in the first place a fan has earned the right to make that purchase. If he or she cannot make the match for whatever reason which may have been at short notice they previously could have sold/given it to a friend. Now that option goes with the threat of losing loyalty points. As a consequence there's a danger of no one using the ticket, which is of benefit to none of the parties.

4: Reading between the lines there is profiling of fans that will be asked to provide ID. It's surely going to be impossible or ridiculously time consuming to check (say) 6,000 fan ID's at the Emirates should we be playing Arsenal next season. Therefore the clipboard kids will focus on 16-25 year old males who may have had a sherbert or two, and picked up a ticket from a mate (who, remember, has earned the right to buy the ticket in the first place through having sufficient points).

5: The Friends & Family scheme allows groups to buy tickets together and sit next to each other. How will such groups be policed by the Clipboard kids as tickets are likely to be handed out within such a group randomly, and the fans won't necessarily arrive simultaneously at the ground.

6: It discriminates against parents with kids who might be desperate to visit a 'big' ground. Personally I don't think I'm a criminal if I decide to buy a ticket for Old Trafford (I've seen us play in the league there before anyway) and then forego attending the match because a friend who himself does have enough points would love his son/daughter to go with him. The rules being introduced would however criminalise me, and it's that tone, from the wording of the rules, that is so disappointing.

We are all fans, we appreciate what TB has done, we put up with a lot of inconvenience for our love of the Albion, and IMO it's an unnecessary approach to take for a problem that doesn't really exist, as well as an invasion of personal and civil liberties.

Bold Seagull · Mar 8, 2017

Calm down everyone, this is a classic case of appearing to address an issue, but without necessarily needing to carry it out.

If someone asks, 'what are you doing about fans using others loyalty points', they have an answer. Doesn't mean there are suddenly going to be a load of Albion stewards at away games. They've put a T&C in place, it might make people think twice just in case, but in reality there won't be any enforcement of this. There is no revenue to be gained (unlike making sure adults weren't getting in on U18 or U10 tickets at the Amex), so they're hardly going to be paying some stewards plus expenses to be stood outside an away ground with nothing to be gained from the exercise.

Bold Seagull · Mar 8, 2017

El Presidente said:
I've read PB's epistle and this does raise a number of points. Some of which are within the remit of the club and others not.

1: It reinforces that football fans are viewed by the authorities as second class citizens. You can buy and transfer tickets for other sporting events, and secondary markets exist for these, often organised by large ticketing organisations, so why is football different?

The answer is that this (and previous) governments still have the paternalistic view that football fans are all potential hooligans and need monitoring to a greater degree than those of other sports.

Surely the answer is that an away game that everyone is desperate to get to, that someone who has never been to an away game gets a ticket off a mate who had no intention of going at the expense of someone who travels to every away game isn't fair?

Music concerts don't give a crap whether you've bought every record ever made by a band and been to 20 gigs, or whether you've never heard of them, they just sell tickets first come first served.

In that respect I feel the opposite is true of football, and that the club is attempting to allocate it's tickets based on those that deserve it more. I am totally okay with a person going to Rotherham on a Tuesday night being more entitled to getting a Brentford away tickets ahead of me. Isn't this treating fans as valued supporters of their club?

n1 gull · Mar 8, 2017

El Presidente said:
I've read PB's epistle and this does raise a number of points. Some of which are within the remit of the club and others not.

1: It reinforces that football fans are viewed by the authorities as second class citizens. You can buy and transfer tickets for other sporting events, and secondary markets exist for these, often organised by large ticketing organisations, so why is football different?

The answer is that this (and previous) governments still have the paternalistic view that football fans are all potential hooligans and need monitoring to a greater degree than those of other sports.

2: There's an assumption (which is fair) that we have an excellent chance of promotion next season and there will be a scramble for tickets for certain fixtures, we all know what they are. I strongly suspect that first dibs on those tickets will go to sponsors and commercial partners of the club, and then to those who are earn loyalty points.

I'm not saying it's wrong, we are realistic enough to know sponsors pay money and expect privileges as a result. You only have to look at how FIFA and UEFA hand out a large proportion of tickets to commercial chums for the WC and Euro competitions to see that money talks, and those who were at Rotherham last night don't take priority over American Express et al.

3: By the very nature of being able to buy a ticket in the first place a fan has earned the right to make that purchase. If he or she cannot make the match for whatever reason which may have been at short notice they previously could have sold/given it to a friend. Now that option goes with the threat of losing loyalty points. As a consequence there's a danger of no one using the ticket, which is of benefit to none of the parties.

4: Reading between the lines there is profiling of fans that will be asked to provide ID. It's surely going to be impossible or ridiculously time consuming to check (say) 6,000 fan ID's at the Emirates should we be playing Arsenal next season. Therefore the clipboard kids will focus on 16-25 year old males who may have had a sherbert or two, and picked up a ticket from a mate (who, remember, has earned the right to buy the ticket in the first place through having sufficient points).

5: The Friends & Family scheme allows groups to buy tickets together and sit next to each other. How will such groups be policed by the Clipboard kids as tickets are likely to be handed out within such a group randomly, and the fans won't necessarily arrive simultaneously at the ground.

6: It discriminates against parents with kids who might be desperate to visit a 'big' ground. Personally I don't think I'm a criminal if I decide to buy a ticket for Old Trafford (I've seen us play in the league there before anyway) and then forego attending the match because a friend who himself does have enough points would love his son/daughter to go with him. The rules being introduced would however criminalise me, and it's that tone, from the wording of the rules, that is so disappointing.

We are all fans, we appreciate what TB has done, we put up with a lot of inconvenience for our love of the Albion, and IMO it's an unnecessary approach to take for a problem that doesn't really exist, as well as an invasion of personal and civil liberties.

I concur with every word. Fantastic response

sparkie · Mar 8, 2017

BensGrandad said:
I havent read the thread, too many pages, but I assume somebody was either nicked or ejected from Forest who didnt buy the ticket himself and was using somebody elses points. How else would they know?

Maybe. Or it could be more about the lincoln game after which someone was up in court who'd had a previous banning order.

El Presidente · Mar 8, 2017

Bold Seagull said:
Surely the answer is that an away game that everyone is desperate to get to, that someone who has never been to an away game gets a ticket off a mate who had no intention of going at the expense of someone who travels to every away game isn't fair?

Music concerts don't give a crap whether you've bought every record ever made by a band and been to 20 gigs, or whether you've never heard of them, they just sell tickets first come first served.

In that respect I feel the opposite is true of football, and that the club is attempting to allocate it's tickets based on those that deserve it more. I am totally okay with a person going to Rotherham on a Tuesday night being more entitled to getting a Brentford away tickets ahead of me. Isn't this treating fans as valued supporters of their club?

Surely the mate who is supplying the ticket must have earned the points in the first place though by attending sufficient away games.

I cannot see situations where someone who has attended every away match doesn't get to see the Albion because they are in a relatively small pool of fans and so will be first in the queue for tickets anyway.

El Presidente · Mar 8, 2017

sparkie said:
Maybe. Or it could be more about the lincoln game after which someone was up in court who'd had a previous banning order.

You could buy a ticket at the office at Rotherham last night and have a banning order too. It doesn't have to come from a mate.

sparkie · Mar 8, 2017

BNthree said:
I'm curious if this to stop a few fans of banning orders from going to away games? Just trying to think why this has been put in place.

Fallout from the lincoln arrest(s) is my guess.

BNthree · Mar 8, 2017

sparkie said:
Fallout from the lincoln arrest(s) is my guess.

That was my first thought when I heard it too. Obviously don't know if that is the case though.

Ron Manager · Mar 8, 2017

El Presidente said:
You could buy a ticket at the office at Rotherham last night and have a banning order too. It doesn't have to come from a mate.

How about the case where Loyalty Points are in operation, I cannot go but buy a ticket, then flog it to someone (at face value!) who might not be there 'lawfully'?

AWAYDAY · Mar 8, 2017

Bozza said:
When I was alerted to this a few days ago I knew it would create a big stir even though it doesn't really change anything for almost every one of us. If you buy tickets for yourself and go to games using those tickets, there really is nothing to see here. The club are trying to ensure that a fan who qualifies to buy a ticket, particularly those games where demand exceeds supply, has the appropriate opportunity to purchase a ticket.

I've not read most of this thread due to being in and around Rotherham (and am currently on my way back) but the club have sent through a few points of clarification based on some of the posts made here:

Away match tickets:

1. This policy is designed to protect loyal supporters: those fans that have earned the right to buy away tickets.

2. It's only necessary because the loyalty point scheme is being abused by a small
minority - resulting in complaints from fans.

3. The club reserves the right to check ID for those it suspects have abused the scheme. Clearly, that doesn't mean all traveling fans.

4. The only people that should be concerned are those currently abusing the loyalty point scheme - or benefitting from that abuse.

5. Our club has a responsibility to the host club to ensure fans attending their stadium are those fans the tickets were intended for.

6. Over-riding all is the law (it is illegal to sell or pass tickets to a football match - even without payment - without authorisation).

Season tickets:

7. Season tickets have never been transferable - match by match, by season, or permanently - see point 6 above.

8. The club has tried to help season ticket holders - and build its own fan base - by introducing, and allowing, some flexibility.

9. Our approach is far more flexible than most clubs, and provides most season ticket holders with considerable added value.

10. Anyone who passes on season tickets outside of the club's authorised process does so at their own risk. Nothing new.

11. We can't allow permanent transfers of season tickets because we have a waiting list - and we don't want a "closed shop".

12. Again, this policy is about being fair to all supporters. It isn't fair to those on a waiting list if they don't get a chance to buy.

13. IF we are promoted, demand for season tickets and away match tickets will be at its highest so we must have clear polices.

In summary, the club's policies are designed to protect loyal supporters - those earning loyalty points for away matches - or those fans trying to become loyal supporters - by paying to be on the season ticket waiting list. Both groups are important to a club that's trying to retain and grow its fan base and, in the past 6 years, has done so very well.

Unfortunately, however, as with the many other loopholes the club's ticketing team have found - and closed - in recent years, we have a very small minority of fans that wish to operate on their own terms rather than the club's. This creates considerable additional work for the club and resentment from other fans leading to complaints.

Contrary to the opinion of some, the club's staff don't sit in a dark room thinking of ways to make life difficult for our fans! We simply try to react to circumstances and situations to protect and support fans from the unfair actions of others. Sometimes our reaction may seem harsh or hardline, that's because there are few ways to solve certain issues.

The rhetoric about "the club will regret this when they're on the way down etc" is disappointing - and slightly ironic - given the key points of the changes are to protect loyal fans (from not missing out on big away trips) and to help develop and encourage the current interest in the club, while adding value for existing season ticket holders!

With the club growing so quickly, we must evolve terms and conditions to meet the changing nature of the way we are supported and our tickets are used. This is part and parcel of a football club growing up and, by definition, will never please everyone all of the time, particularly those who prefer things done their way, regardless of fairness.

Thanks for this useful extra info.

My reading of this is that they plan to enforce the rules in a small number of occasions when they see 'abuse'. I don't think they are Looking to come down on people who pass tickets because they can't make a home or away game, turn up and behave themselves.

I could be wrong and we'll see slot checks home and away but it seems highly unlikely and will cause more conflict and bad feeling than address the problem. Imagine taking a mate n a ticket (who hasn't done this in the past) and getting turned away! It would kick off every week!

There are still ways round this so can't see it solving the problem.

I do think if you travel regularly you'll still get tickets for prem games if we get there.

Bold Seagull · Mar 8, 2017

El Presidente said:
Surely the mate who is supplying the ticket must have earned the points in the first place though by attending sufficient away games.

I cannot see situations where someone who has attended every away match doesn't get to see the Albion because they are in a relatively small pool of fans and so will be first in the queue for tickets anyway.

Yes, but if you attend all the games then use that loyalty to get a ticket for a mate who has never been to a game, you've got another fan not able to get a ticket on 1100 points. I don't see how that is fair?

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