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Chelsea U18 13 - 0 Brighton



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BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
hans kraay fan club said:
But, taking the Wakefield, Christie-Davies examples, is it not equally true that we may not have first dibs even on the local 'exceptionally outstanding' youngsters?

We are not a top four club. We will always have to be clever in recruitment, wherever we can find them. Every single poster on this forum would love it if we were a stable Premier League club, with 8 first team players born and raised in Sussex. Literally EVERYONE wants that, but it will never happen. Its simply unrealistic.

I also think your general perception of the make up of the academy intake is rather wide of the mark, too. There's a pretty healthy % of local lads. The high profile ARRIVALS who join aged 17-19 are always more 'exotic', but that's self-evident surely? The locals are not going to sign at that age (Starkey and March excepted) because they are here already?
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As with Charlie and Isaac perhaps that is a good reason for having a Cat 1 Academy and the associated budget, but I am not sure.

Again if we cannot even hang on to them, then it confirms my view that we are cannot be in the market for 'exceptional talent' we are in the recruitment pool of very good players that we hope can then develop into exceptional talent within our academy and within the confines of contracts etc.

Are we really being clever in recruitment, Ireland isnt virgin territory nor is Scandinavia, the bigger clubs have been there for generations.

I take your point regardin U23's, by that time they are big boys and have to sink or swim even if at this level the same dynamics exist, its the younger age groups that interest me more, local talent deserves greater help support and advantage.
 




A

amexer

Well-known member
Aug 8, 2011
6,211
hans kraay fan club said:
But, taking the Wakefield, Christie-Davies examples, is it not equally true that we may not have first dibs even on the local 'exceptionally outstanding' youngsters?

We are not a top four club. We will always have to be clever in recruitment, wherever we can find them. Every single poster on this forum would love it if we were a stable Premier League club, with 8 first team players born and raised in Sussex. Literally EVERYONE wants that, but it will never happen. Its simply unrealistic.

I also think your general perception of the make up of the academy intake is rather wide of the mark, too. There's a pretty healthy % of local lads. The high profile ARRIVALS who join aged 17-19 are always more 'exotic', but that's self-evident surely? The locals are not going to sign at that age (Starkey and March excepted) because they are here already?
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Would like to think a one off. Have watched them twice and have been very impressed. Outplayed Stoke and recently beat Arsenal. Because they have been good can only think a lot have gone up to under 23s. As far as local or not local it has to be remembered there are local boys age 12/13 who have been going to Chelses/Arsenal since they were 8. At that stage we didnt even have a training ground let alone coaching boys at that age
 


hans kraay fan club

hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
61,345
Chandlers Ford
BigGully said:
As with Charlie and Isaac perhaps that is a good reason for having a Cat 1 Academy and the associated budget, but I am not sure.

Again if we cannot even hang on to them, then it confirms my view that we are cannot be in the market for 'exceptional talent' we are in the recruitment pool of very good players that we hope can then develop into exceptional talent within our academy and within the confines of contracts etc.

Are we really being clever in recruitment, Ireland isnt virgin territory nor is Scandinavia, the bigger clubs have been there for generations.

I take your point regardin U23's, by that time they are big boys and have to sink or swim even if at this level the same dynamics exist, its the younger age groups that interest me more, local talent deserves greater help support and advantage.
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It isn't just about identification though is it? It is about persuading them to come. There are lots of factors as you know, one of which is hard CASH (by direct or less 'honest' / direct means). The ones we seem to be playing on, are environment and personal relationships. We've done well in Ireland these last few seasons (better than our 'standing' would dictate) because of Morling, and his personal knowledge and contacts with clubs and with kids coming through the age group ranks with the FAI.

Because of that, we have a couple of Irish lads in the system who actually ARE the 'exceptional' ones in their age groups, that we DID secure ahead of the bigger clubs. It can be done.
 


D

Deleted member 2719

Guest
BevBHA said:
Not seen a thread about this other than the link to the game thread. Yes you are reading that correctly 13 (thirteen) - 0.

Three hatricks. A category 1 academy should not lose by more than 4 goals tops to anybody that is simply embarrassing considering the money being spent on youth development.
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Isn't it as basic as Chelsea are all over this part of Sussex on our manor picking up the talent, what does the lad or dad pick , Chelsea or the Albion???

I bet 9 out of 10 go with Chelsea.

Chelsea need to Feck off out of Sussex IMO.
 


Baldseagull

Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
10,957
Crawley
Isn't 13-0 in a youth game a bit like 6-0 in the Championship? i.e. it happens once a or twice a season to someone. Not as bad as 9-0 in the top division though which hasn't happened for many, many years.
 




JCL666

JCL666

absurdism
Sep 23, 2011
2,190
hans kraay fan club said:
But, taking the Wakefield, Christie-Davies examples, is it not equally true that we may not have first dibs even on the local 'exceptionally outstanding' youngsters?
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In the case of Christie-Davies we simply didn't have the infrastructure in place. I would add that he had other PL clubs after him and the deal Chelsea offered was phenomenal. So it's not just us who Chelsea can trump.

hans kraay fan club said:
I also think your general perception of the make up of the academy intake is rather wide of the mark, too. There's a pretty healthy % of local lads.
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This is true. There are a high % of local lads in the academy and the Talent ID squad is pretty much all local kids.
 


B

BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
hans kraay fan club said:
It isn't just about identification though is it? It is about persuading them to come. There are lots of factors as you know, one of which is hard CASH (by direct or less 'honest' / direct means). The ones we seem to be playing on, are environment and personal relationships. We've done well in Ireland these last few seasons (better than our 'standing' would dictate) because of Morling, and his personal knowledge and contacts with clubs and with kids coming through the age group ranks with the FAI.

Because of that, we have a couple of Irish lads in the system who actually ARE the 'exceptional' ones in their age groups, that we DID secure ahead of the bigger clubs. It can be done.
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Not at all whilst I agree Morling is the key and whilst accepting that the club is entitled to employ whom they wish and implement any policy they wish, it doesnt help those that are not integral to his policy.

Morling had a pretty undistinguished playing career, a scholar at Norwich he then became their youth team manager before moving onto Peterborough and then to Ireland, undoubtedly his selling point when recruited by Burke would be his Ireland connections, it then became his priroity to fullful his.

From that moment the clubs recruitment policy shifted, from mainly Sussex to now include an Irish recruitment drive initiated by Morling the Academy Manager no less.

His main aim is for this to be seen as a success, if he can get Irish players through he will get the credit, by default at such a critical stage for other youngsters it causes some disadvantage against those competing for favour, playing time and progression.

I do not agree we are outbidding, or out flanking Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool for exceptional talent there, Ireland as with many small countires cannot offer much outside of their very best players, you quickly fall off a cliff into pretty much county league youth level even within their own national youth squads.

We cannot be sure at the point of recruitment how they might compare to local youngsters even when they are schoolboy or youth internationals, but I know which players he would prioritise against local youngsters that showed similar ability and potential.

Its not a dislike for Ireland, the Irish or those youngsters that come here, I genuinely wish them all the very best, its just a comment on how fragile a young players progression pathway might be and for me it would be nice that local talent had the advantage rather than someone else.
 
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B

BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
JCL666 said:
I This is true. There are a high % of local lads in the academy and the Talent ID squad is pretty much all local kids.
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But with respect, if as I suspect the talent ID squad is a level or two below the actual academy squad of that age, there is less incentive to go outside of an area even if they wanted to as its a less critical part and just as unlikely someone from far afield would want to attend anyway.

My point is that if one of the local Talent ID squad found himself going through the ranks, he would want a fair assessment and decision at the stage whether to offer him a scholarship at sixteen, when other youngsters from outside of the area are also vying for a place.

When in actual fact most decisions on talented youngsters is driven by policy, implemented by a man that makes that policy.
 
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U

Uter

Well-known member
Aug 5, 2008
1,474
The land of chocolate
Slightly OT, but Danny Cashman grabbed another assist for England U16s v Italy today in a 3-1 win. He also got a goal and an assist v Finland last week in a 4-0 win.
 


J

Jim D

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2003
5,249
Worthing
BigGully said:
But with respect, if as I suspect the talent ID squad is a level or two below the actual academy squad of that age, there is less incentive to go outside of an area even if they wanted to as its a less critical part and just as unlikely someone from far afield would want to attend anyway.

My point is that if one of the local Talent ID squad found himself going through the ranks, he would want a fair assessment and decision at the stage whether to offer him a scholarship at sixteen, when other youngsters from outside of the area are also vying for a place.

When in actual fact most decisions on talented youngsters is driven by policy, implemented by a man that makes that policy.
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I would say that the most talented player in the history of our youth setup was Gareth Barry. But I believe he wasn't spotted by Villa, but was taken by them to keep the one they wanted company (Standing? the famous 'Dick Knight's nephew'). It was only when he got there that they realised what they had (and that's when the haggling started). So, just because someone has been 'rejected' by Chelsea, Arsenal, etc. and is seen at this moment as below the level required, doesn't mean they won't make it.
 






B

BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
Jim D said:
I would say that the most talented player in the history of our youth setup was Gareth Barry. But I believe he wasn't spotted by Villa, but was taken by them to keep the one they wanted company (Standing? the famous 'Dick Knight's nephew'). It was only when he got there that they realised what they had (and that's when the haggling started). So, just because someone has been 'rejected' by Chelsea, Arsenal, etc. and is seen at this moment as below the level required, doesn't mean they won't make it.
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I know that Standing was deemed better at the time, but thats just a good example of how fragile the pathways are for any young player, as far as being released and then still finding a career we all know this happens but it automatically makes a chance of a career most unlikely.

Etiquette demands that if you get release by a club, you may perhaps ask for a trial at a club of a similar level or more likely at a trial at a club of a lower level.

So being at the bigger clubs is a huge advantage which in turn effects the likelhood of a trial at those released by lesser clubs, another reason if ever I was in the unlikely position to advise a young 16 year old player that might have a choice of clubs to sign for, I would say go high as possible on the longest deal posssible.
 


JCL666

JCL666

absurdism
Sep 23, 2011
2,190
BigGully said:
But with respect, if as I suspect the talent ID squad is a level or two below the actual academy squad of that age, there is less incentive to go outside of an area even if they wanted to as its a less critical part and just as unlikely someone from far afield would want to attend anyway.

My point is that if one of the local Talent ID squad found himself going through the ranks, he would want a fair assessment and decision at the stage whether to offer him a scholarship at sixteen, when other youngsters from outside of the area are also vying for a place.

When in actual fact most decisions on talented youngsters is driven by policy, implemented by a man that makes that policy.
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The Talent ID squad is basically a shadow squad of the Academy. It's the highest level without actually signing for the club for a youth player. You're right in that as the kids are unsigned and unpaid there is little incentive (none at all tbh) for those not in the local area. However my point is that this provides a route to the academy for local kids, they are well know to the coaching/scouting staff and they do get an opportunity.

I think the club are aware of the challenges regarding developing local kids. The talent id/development network (which is basically the "pre-academy") went through a significant change at the start of this season and the truth is that they although they obviously want to identify talent at all ages, their focus is predominately on very young players. This makes sense as the academy has only recently been able to compete with those that are more established and still has teething problems regarding staff/coaches.
 


B

BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
JCL666 said:
The Talent ID squad is basically a shadow squad of the Academy. It's the highest level without actually signing for the club for a youth player. You're right in that as the kids are unsigned and unpaid there is little incentive (none at all tbh) for those not in the local area. However my point is that this provides a route to the academy for local kids, they are well know to the coaching/scouting staff and they do get an opportunity.

I think the club are aware of the challenges regarding developing local kids. The talent id/development network (which is basically the "pre-academy") went through a significant change at the start of this season and the truth is that they although they obviously want to identify talent at all ages, their focus is predominately on very young players. This makes sense as the academy has only recently been able to compete with those that are more established and still has teething problems regarding staff/coaches.
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My comment isnt really directed at the ID group or any other group a level or two down form the top academy group, with respect to those youngsters it is likely that they are not deemed to have the ability to move up a level, especially those at the upper age level 14+, it can happen and there will be a policy that outlines why the ID talent exists and confirms this, but in the later age groups it becomes less likely.

My point really is more to do with the top academy group, where perhaps at 14's and above critical decisions are being made, in terms of whom to sign up to sixteen and then scholars and develoment professionals etc etc.

If as I suspect you have a family member enrolled with the club, you just watch as coach loads of young talent including released Premier League youngsters, Irish and others are quickly introduced, and quickly a newer fresher player gains an advantage above those that are already there, especially if there is an incentive from above at the academy that a certain policy would be a preference, it fundamentally skews that selection process, it really is that fine line.

I remember a particular age group at the top of the academy where two long standing local youngsters that had been at the club since the age at eight were then not offered a scholarship, in their place was two young players quickly shipped in that had been released from a couple of top clubs and got the nod ahead of those other two.

I can honestly say that the two (accepting thats my opinion, which to the club is irrelevent) not retained were as good as the two brought in but someone somewhere felt that they couldn't lose as they were changing like for like, but signing a released player from a Premier League club held some sort of preference to them and perhaps felt it made the Centre of Excellence look more slick and enhanced their own position, it was pure vanity and for those two released being at the club from 8 years old actually became a disadvantage.

Its just an example of how policy drives the selection and assessment policy and very rarely pure talent supercedes those preferences.
 




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