[Politics] Brexit

Diego Napier · Oct 23, 2016

Two Professors said:
So you want to stay in the EU,expect our employment levels to stay as high as they are,and expect our workers to increase their productivity to French levels in solidarity with their European comrades.Perhaps we could also offer jobs to all the unemployed under-25's in France,Italy,Spain,Portugal,Greece etc.to teach our people their work ethic.Unfortunately,this would double our population.

Good grief! In your mind those assumptions pass as a natural and logical extrapolation of the comments I've made on the thread?

Theatre of Trees · Oct 23, 2016

Neville's Breakfast said:
Plenty of businessmen in plenty of countries trade with the EU without a trade deal. We and the EU will
conclude such a deal if it suits both sides. Looking at trade flows both ways I would think it does so you shouldn't worry too much.

I think the point being made is that if one country doesn't like the deal we do they have the power to veto to prevent it happening and we may end up somewhere we don't want to be. It's another of those partially submerged rocks we will have to carefully navigate around otherwise it will have the capacity to hole us quite badly.

Buzzer · Oct 23, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
I appear to be sharing a football club with mentally disturbed sub editors from the Daily Express. May Christ weep.

Quite a few of your pro-EU, anti-Brexit comments have been just as, if not more outlandish than those comments from people you consider mentally disturbed, which as ways to describe someone you disagree with is a pretty low blow in any conversation but when you;re trying to make out you're the calm-headed one just kind of craps all over your own argument.

Neville's Breakfast · Oct 23, 2016

Theatre of Trees said:
I think the point being made is that if one country doesn't like the deal we do they have the power to veto to prevent it happening and we may end up somewhere we don't want to be. It's another of those partially submerged rocks we will have to carefully navigate around otherwise it will have the capacity to hole us quite badly.

I agree, that is a risk. What is rational for the EU as a whole is not necessarily rational for individual members and this is the reason they find concluding such deals so difficult. I wouldn't underplay this risk. Although many who are pro EU have claimed this as a natural democratic brake I don't see it as tenable going forward. The EU needs more integration going forward to make it viable as an economic unit. This will mean compulsory membership of the Euro area, fiscal flows to weaker economies, merged taxation and banking systems etc. I don't really think this constitutes a political dictatorship but the economic one size fits all will likely entrench the economic success of the centre (Germany) and the poverty of southern areas such as Greece. The reason for this will be the inability of poorer areas to devalue their currencies (as they don't exist) to stimulate their export industries. It is economic rather than political dictatorship.

Guy Crouchback · Oct 23, 2016

Apparently leading banks are planning to leave the UK early next year...

Britain's largest banks are planning to move business overseas due to uncertainty over the Brexit process, the head of the British Bankers' Association has warned.

Anthony Browne blamed fears that European Union politicians will want to erect trade barriers in an attempt to weaken the City of London during Brexit negotiations for the planned moves.

Smaller banks could begin moving some operations overseas within weeks, with larger institutions following in the first few months of 2017, he predicted.....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-banks-planning-to-leave-uk-early-next-year-anthony-browne-british-bankers-association-a7376141.html

Sod them! Who needs banks anyway? The most important thing is: you "got your country back"!

Lincoln Imp · Oct 23, 2016

Buzzer said:
Quite a few of your pro-EU, anti-Brexit comments have been just as, if not more outlandish than those comments from people you consider mentally disturbed, which as ways to describe someone you disagree with is a pretty low blow in any conversation but when you;re trying to make out you're the calm-headed one just kind of craps all over your own argument.

M'mmm... I accept I went in more strongly than I usually do but one more attempt to make an association between the Third Reich and the EU can do that to a man.

Just out of interest, what have I ever said that is more 'outlandish' than that?

GoldWithFalmer · Oct 23, 2016

Guy Crouchback said:
Apparently leading banks are planning to leave the UK early next year...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-banks-planning-to-leave-uk-early-next-year-anthony-browne-british-bankers-association-a7376141.html

Sod them! Who needs banks anyway? The most important thing is: you "got your country back"!

Alarmist......HSBC and Barclays have pledged to stay and lets not forget that newspapers such as Independent and Gaurdian have a history pre Brexit of running the banks down..

Finance is finance and London is has and will for some time yet,irrespective of how the final Brexit model becomes, remain a financial center.

JC Footy Genius · Oct 23, 2016

Captain Sensible said:
Get your posts in now lads before it gets overrun by the likes of cunning fergus, Jc footy genius, beotherlem or whoever.

No need to worry, we have decided to work on a rota system as agreed at our weekly neighbourhood Brexiteer meeting ..

houses-in-speke-liverpool-covered-in-flags-136391235187102601-140618104513.jpg

Herr Tubthumper · Oct 23, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
No need to worry, we have decided to work on a rota system as agreed at our weekly neighbourhood Brexiteer meeting ..

Whats the punishment in the EDL for hanging a union flag upside down? Number 72 could be in trouble.

GoldWithFalmer · Oct 23, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Whats the punishment in the EDL for hanging a union flag upside down?

JC Footy Genius · Oct 23, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Whats the punishment in the EDL for hanging a union flag upside down?

I doubt they know there is a correct way to hang it.

Lincoln Imp · Oct 23, 2016

Tom Hark said:
There IS no 'EU superstate dictatorship'. There's only Germany and a load of subservient economic nations. Brexcluding us.

And the Walloons, obviously.

beorhthelm · Oct 23, 2016

Guy Crouchback said:
Apparently leading banks are planning to leave the UK early next year...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-banks-planning-to-leave-uk-early-next-year-anthony-browne-british-bankers-association-a7376141.html

Sod them! Who needs banks anyway? The most important thing is: you "got your country back"!

was looking forward to this poping up. it perfectly illustrates the problems in the Brexit debate, a piece is not misquoted so much as deliberatly placed to stir up a friction, aimed at serving the interests of the original source. firstly it has a misleading contradiction, while banks are supposed to be "quivering over the relocation button", they have project teams working on which teams they need to move to serve customers. wouldnt it be possible a conclusion of such projects is they dont need to relocate? or that they need only relocate small specific functions?

secondly, its as much aimed at EU as UK to highlight the risk to the europeans if they play hard ball, if they do move operations to Paris and Frankfurt it will increase cost of investment . the final paragraph is a really clear summary if you get that far and ignore the provocative headlines, the Banks want both sides to make an agreement that suits them best.

London will survive as a global financial centre. Finance is inventive and will find a way through. But putting up barriers to the trade in financial services across the Channel will make us all worse off, not just in the UK but in mainland Europe.

nicko31 · Oct 23, 2016

Guy Crouchback said:
Apparently leading banks are planning to leave the UK early next year...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-banks-planning-to-leave-uk-early-next-year-anthony-browne-british-bankers-association-a7376141.html

Sod them! Who needs banks anyway? The most important thing is: you "got your country back"!

Yeap we've got our country back, no more straight bananas in a couple of years and no more laws from Brussels that our ruining our lives. But don't worry financial services is only 30% of our exports and we're gonna start making things again we can soon diversify, and who needs the NHS anyway most of us should be able to get private medical cover and it will be better and we won't have to wait for anything.

Britain today....16 million people with less than £100 in the bank. Who's gonna get hurt first?

GoldWithFalmer · Oct 23, 2016

nicko31 said:
Britain today....16 million people with less than £100 in the bank. Who's gonna get hurt first?

Why leave money in a bank.....

Herr Tubthumper · Oct 23, 2016

GoldWithFalmer said:
Why leave money in a bank.....

Quite, it'll be disappearing over the channel when the bank moves.

cunning fergus · Oct 23, 2016

Diego Napier said:
I'll pick up a few salient points.

My reference to google was alluding to your trait of seeking some facts to support your confirmation bias whilst ignoring others.

Your wield the term "undemocratic" as though it is shameful. Democracy is a useful tool to allow the powerful and wealthy to maintaining social order but is in essence just one of a number of belief systems such as catholicism, capitalism, communism or the legal system that usually fail to deliver on their promises whilst duping the public at large.

In that light, your point about Trident and CAP has no meaning for me but let's follow your lead; as the major parties all agree on retaining Trident, how do you vote against it? Assuming that in future Labour decide to ditch nuclear deterrence but I find all their other policies anathema, what do I do? The reality is you or I have no influence whatsoever on whether Trident (or vast swathes of our society & cultural edifices) is maintained, replaced or junked. Equally, I don't care about UK Government waste, there's nothing I can do about it.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the EU is in cahoots with global business whereas Britain is somehow immune or deliberately shuns their advances. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the first stirrings of true capitalism in the late 18th century, Britain along with other European nations worked closely with private enterprise in the name of revenue. Earlier simple investments in pirateers paved the way with looted gold from the New world providing great returns to the crown. This paved the way for enterprises such as the first opium war with China or wars in the Nile and Egypt, fought solely because revenue to British drug cartels and the Exchequer (and British politicians) was threatened. The collusion is far less obvious today but the bonds of trust, revenue and growth between state and capitalism are ever stronger.

Your concluding statement with it's sad attempt at a put down demeans you rather than me.

OK, so let me get this straight, you don't like my habit of attaching factual links to support my comments, because you think they are biased?

It's not like I am going to stop doing it, is it? If you disagree with the facts then attach your own. Take the Ford/EIB that I have attached some links to. Feel free to attach some facts of your own that disprove my point?

As for your points on democracy and waste I can't think many remainers feel the way you evidently do.

You don't value democracy generally, but you actively support the aims of the EU and you don't appear to care how they achieve them, and your point on waste sums it up doesn't it?

"I don't care about UK Government waste, there's nothing I can do about it." Quite.

I have plenty of my own doubts and complaints about UK democracy, however I understand I have a say on who will govern the country and broadly the policies they will apply. If Trident was a very big deal to me then I would vote for a Green candidate, I have expressed my view.

The EU and its institutions are set up to confound any democratic mandate. This is not by accident but by design, so that the law making arm isn't even directly elected by the European people, so I don't even get a say. If I don't agree with aspects of the new European General Data Protection Regulation that is now on the UK statute book without any UK parliamentary debate, who do I hold accountable? This new legislative development to this country's long parliamentary history is why people with as diverse political beliefs as Tony Benn and Enoch Powell could agree that the UK Parliament's supremacy had been sold out to unelected EU institutions.

As for "labouring under the misapprehension that the EU is in cahoots with global business whereas Britain is somehow immune or deliberately shuns their advances" where did you get that from?

I clearly stated the UK, EU and global capitalism were all in cahoots with the decision to burn EU workers jobs in favour of those in Turkey. Again who is accountable for this decision?

The one thing that happens to UK politicians is ultimately those we don't like we eventually bin off, from Portillo to Balls to Cameron to Blair. Typically their arrogance ends up being the precursor to their political demise. This is good and it is not consistent with how the EU works. Despite the chaos of the euro and its consequences who has gone?

Exactly.

cunning fergus · Oct 23, 2016

GoldWithFalmer said:
Why leave money in a bank.....

Give a man a gun, and he'll rob a bank.

Give a man a bank and he'll rob the world.

They will be truly missed.

GoldWithFalmer · Oct 23, 2016

cunning fergus said:
Give a man a gun, and he'll rob a bank.

Give a man a bank and he'll rob the world.

They will be truly missed.

There is much truth in this..

Theatre of Trees · Oct 23, 2016

beorhthelm said:
was looking forward to this poping up. it perfectly illustrates the problems in the Brexit debate, a piece is not misquoted so much as deliberatly placed to stir up a friction, aimed at serving the interests of the original source. firstly it has a misleading contradiction, while banks are supposed to be "quivering over the relocation button", they have project teams working on which teams they need to move to serve customers. wouldnt it be possible a conclusion of such projects is they dont need to relocate? or that they need only relocate small specific functions?

secondly, its as much aimed at EU as UK to highlight the risk to the europeans if they play hard ball, if they do move operations to Paris and Frankfurt it will increase cost of investment . the final paragraph is a really clear summary if you get that far and ignore the provocative headlines, the Banks want both sides to make an agreement that suits them best.

The banks want to keep 'passporting' and therefore desire an agreement to be as close to the status quo as possible. They do not want either hardline EU politicians or populist hard brexiteers becoming too influential in the process. If the latter play the populist card in this country that will be when a decision to relocate may take place.

In all likelihood the banks should have plans for a number outcomes now in place which will probably cover all feasible options from staying, leaving or partial relocation.

To me this is a warning to the government to stick to the soft brexit route and the EU not to go into punishment mode.

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