Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

Register Log in

[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?

  • Total voters
    1,081


pastafarian

pastafarian

Well-known member
Sep 4, 2011
11,902
Sussex
Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Well that's clear then! But thanks for responding.

The substantive (practicable) point is this (sophistry aside): there is unfinished business which we are legally/morally bound to negotiate. As for this 'over ready' bollocks (oh I do hate Johnson's journalistic approach to serious matters of state which instantly trivialises all that it touches) I would think that this means it still needs cooking!
And the bad news is that the electricity has been cut-off. Were it an old fashioned gas oven I might be tempted to recommend where BJ should put his head.

I don't want to go into the swamp of procedure, but (genuinely interested) what is your view of the situation if negotiations break down. What do we default to? Presumably WTO rules? But do you (or anyone?) have a grasp of what these look like in practice?

As it happens I don't think negs will break down. Not because 'they need us more than we need them' but because I'm assuming there might just be a sliver of common-sense located somewhere underneath the Johnson thatch, and that compromise might just be possible. The consequential chaos if we don't get some sort of deal is not something that any government (and many Brexiteers, perhaps including you) would contemplate, surely?
Click to expand...

It is worth noting (as some forget), that if negotiations don’t produce preferential trading arrangements with the EU by the end of transition then its default WTO terms with the EU (with no preferential EU trade arrangements in place) and if trade arrangements are agreed with the EU by the end of transition then its still default WTO terms (but with supplementary EU preferential trade arrangements in place).
The EU (and UK by extension) already adhere to WTO rules as members of it. Doesn’t always happen in practice though which is why the EU is not alone in having sanctions placed on it in the past for breaking WTO trade rules
Don’t forget, even with no preferential trade agreements in place by the end of transition, it does not mean the EU and UK will stop trying to ever have preferential trade agreements in the future, it just means none are in place and concluded by the end of transition.
 




WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
25,843
Normal meaningless waffle from our late night friend. 4 years on and he still can't say whether he wants a deal or not :facepalm:
And I do hope you're keeping on top of those pizza boxes during your all night porn and puff sessions 'going nuts deep in Battlefield 1 with your boys'.

For some actual Facts about a 'No deal' Brexit.

The Government's current plan on a WTO Brexit is to cut tariffs to zero on 47% of all products for the whole world (currently 27% under the EU).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45112872

And not to implement any of our product standards, safety regulations and sanitary checks on food and animals coming in 'to give us time to adjust'. (No other country has even suggested a reciprocal arrangement, why would they ?).

Not only do we lose all EU negotiated tariffs and quotas where there are trading agreements, but we also lose all the additional EU agreements with countries which actually trade on WTO terms with the EU (USA, China, Brazil etc).

Interesting position from which to start to try and negotiate trade deals :shootself

Tick-Tock indeed :lolol:
 
Last edited:


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,310
WATFORD zero said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45112872

And not to implement any of our product standards, safety regulations and sanitary checks on food and animals coming in 'to give us time to adjust'. (No other country has even suggested a reciprocal arrangement, why would they ?).
Click to expand...

so i dont understand this. are we saying that the UK have no product standards, safety regulations, livestock regulations etc in our own law, and rely on those passed on from Europe? But we've spent years telling ourselves that EU does not impose any laws and regulations and they all go through parliament. which is correct?
 


WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
25,843
beorhthelm said:
so i dont understand this. are we saying that the UK have no product standards, safety regulations, livestock regulations etc in our own law, and rely on those passed on from Europe? But we've spent years telling ourselves that EU does not impose any laws and regulations and they all go through parliament. which is correct?
Click to expand...

It's quite simple. We have them but we are waiving them to avoid complete and utter pandemonium at the borders, due to our complete lack of preparation for Brexit :shrug:

If only someone could have seen this coming.

Tick tock
 
Last edited:


L

Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
pastafarian said:
It is worth noting (as some forget), that if negotiations don’t produce preferential trading arrangements with the EU by the end of transition then its default WTO terms with the EU (with no preferential EU trade arrangements in place) and if trade arrangements are agreed with the EU by the end of transition then its still default WTO terms (but with supplementary EU preferential trade arrangements in place).
The EU (and UK by extension) already adhere to WTO rules as members of it. Doesn’t always happen in practice though which is why the EU is not alone in having sanctions placed on it in the past for breaking WTO trade rules
Don’t forget, even with no preferential trade agreements in place by the end of transition, it does not mean the EU and UK will stop trying to ever have preferential trade agreements in the future, it just means none are in place and concluded by the end of transition.
Click to expand...

A fascinating disquisition but it didn't address what was clearly the question.
 




G

Garry Nelson's teacher

Well-known member
May 11, 2015
5,257
Bloody Worthing!
Lincoln Imp said:
A fascinating disquisition but it didn't address what was clearly the question.
Click to expand...

I think Pasta's response is describing a default 'no deal' outcome. I don't think he is arguing for it as such. And I'm not sure he fully grasps what it would entail and in particular the chaos it would bring - at least in the short term.

But at least since February (2020) Johnson has been flying the 'Australia deal' - and he reiterated it last week. If I understand it (I don't claim to be an expert and the waters are very muddy) then it goes something like this.

1. Early on in the narrative Johnson really did not explicitly want a no deal. Of course he could have been lying. The 'no deal' outcome was never really on the cards for even the more hard nosed Brexiteer Tories. If it was then they weren't following either May's or Johnson's line. Or their manifesto!

2. They did, however, posit the 'Canada' style deal. Which is at least a deal of sorts.

3. But Johnson has pivoted away from this. It would (presumably) concede too much to the EU? This could just be a negotiating tactic, or it could be a lie. But now we are in the Australia deal territory.

4. But there isn't an Australia deal as such - just a loose set of protocols on mutual recognition.

5. I know that those of us on the Remain side of the fence tend to accuse the Brexiteer of 'not knowing what they voted for' - and they get a bit upset, as it sounds rather condescending. But on this issue I wonder how many Brexit voters did so in the understanding of and preference for an Australian style arrangement. I would guess, zero.

6. So far from the 'oven ready' deal that Johnson (and pasta) likes to bang on about, we haven't really got the first clue what is being negotiated in our name. (I know that this ship has sailed, but if ever there was a case for a referendum, this could be it.)

As to why Johnson is going down this route, this is a nice little explanation from the 'I' newspaper.

First and foremost it is about branding. The average Brit will hear Australia and associate it with a successful, modern economy. It makes trading with the UK’s biggest and most important trading partner on essentially WTO rules far easier for people to stomach. Second of all, Mr Johnson is pointing out – correctly – that the UK will not “crash out” without a deal as was feared by many opposed to Brexit. There will not be quite the same cliff-edge as there was during the divorce talks, due to the withdrawal agreement, as it is likely some deals on a sector by sector basis will be agreed. European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said as much in a speech last month. But there will still be the potential for serious upheaval if the UK goes down the Australia route.


To be honest, I think we are being led not to Canada or Australia but simply up the garden path by a shyster who makes it up on the back of a fag packet. Look out soon for the 'Falkland Island deal'. It worked for Maggie.

PS Just to muddy the water even more, the Australian style deal with the EU has been spoken about at the same time as a possible bi-lateral deal between the UK an Australia (Vegemite etc). Anyone would think he is trying to confuse the Great British Public.
 








Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,481
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
Kinky Gerbils said:
The best reply


The Leave Alliance
[MENTION=20725]Lea[/MENTION]veHQ
Replying to
[MENTION=32997]gill[/MENTION]taylor
Remainers won. They defeated May and the EEA Efta option.

blaming remainers
Click to expand...

It's always somebody else to blame. It's their MO.
 


nicko31

nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
17,587
Gods country fortnightly
Garry Nelson's teacher said:
I think Pasta's response is describing a default 'no deal' outcome. I don't think he is arguing for it as such. And I'm not sure he fully grasps what it would entail and in particular the chaos it would bring - at least in the short term.

But at least since February (2020) Johnson has been flying the 'Australia deal' - and he reiterated it last week. If I understand it (I don't claim to be an expert and the waters are very muddy) then it goes something like this.

1. Early on in the narrative Johnson really did not explicitly want a no deal. Of course he could have been lying. The 'no deal' outcome was never really on the cards for even the more hard nosed Brexiteer Tories. If it was then they weren't following either May's or Johnson's line. Or their manifesto!

2. They did, however, posit the 'Canada' style deal. Which is at least a deal of sorts.

3. But Johnson has pivoted away from this. It would (presumably) concede too much to the EU? This could just be a negotiating tactic, or it could be a lie. But now we are in the Australia deal territory.

4. But there isn't an Australia deal as such - just a loose set of protocols on mutual recognition.

5. I know that those of us on the Remain side of the fence tend to accuse the Brexiteer of 'not knowing what they voted for' - and they get a bit upset, as it sounds rather condescending. But on this issue I wonder how many Brexit voters did so in the understanding of and preference for an Australian style arrangement. I would guess, zero.

6. So far from the 'oven ready' deal that Johnson (and pasta) likes to bang on about, we haven't really got the first clue what is being negotiated in our name. (I know that this ship has sailed, but if ever there was a case for a referendum, this could be it.)

As to why Johnson is going down this route, this is a nice little explanation from the 'I' newspaper.

First and foremost it is about branding. The average Brit will hear Australia and associate it with a successful, modern economy. It makes trading with the UK’s biggest and most important trading partner on essentially WTO rules far easier for people to stomach. Second of all, Mr Johnson is pointing out – correctly – that the UK will not “crash out” without a deal as was feared by many opposed to Brexit. There will not be quite the same cliff-edge as there was during the divorce talks, due to the withdrawal agreement, as it is likely some deals on a sector by sector basis will be agreed. European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said as much in a speech last month. But there will still be the potential for serious upheaval if the UK goes down the Australia route.


To be honest, I think we are being led not to Canada or Australia but simply up the garden path by a shyster who makes it up on the back of a fag packet. Look out soon for the 'Falkland Island deal'. It worked for Maggie.

PS Just to muddy the water even more, the Australian style deal with the EU has been spoken about at the same time as a possible bi-lateral deal between the UK an Australia (Vegemite etc). Anyone would think he is trying to confuse the Great British Public.
Click to expand...

He likes to use the term "Australia" because they are white, they speak English and if its good enough for them, well its good enough for us. Australia of course is a very different economy, its far away and is centred around digging stuff out of the ground and flogging it to China

In truth its deal similar to a Mongolia style deal, just another attempt to groom the masses
 


WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
25,843
We do seem to be missing some of the more prolific posters on this thread.

I can't imagine why ?

OrnateBriskAfricancivet-size_restricted.gif

Maybe we can get some of them over here :lolol:
 












daveinplzen

daveinplzen

New member
Aug 31, 2018
2,846
portslade seagull said:
Get over it. Nice little love in you've all been having crying into your hankies
Click to expand...

Nobody is crying. Apart from the people who were mugged into causing the country economic future hardships, who you will blame everybody but yourselves, but you are too fragile to admit it. Even 'sensible Brexiteers are beginn=ing to see the crisis that is looming.


The Leave Alliance
[MENTION=20725]Lea[/MENTION]veHQ
1. Any serious examination our #Brexit trade negotiations suggests the UK is playing silly buggers and was never sincere about a deal and we're just going through the motions to pretend we tried. The headbangers have won. So now it's for them to explain what comes next.
 


Pretty pink fairy

Pretty pink fairy

Banned
Jan 30, 2008
31,981
daveinplzen said:
Nobody is crying. Apart from the people who were mugged into causing the country economic future hardships, who you will blame everybody but yourselves, but you are too fragile to admit it. Even 'sensible Brexiteers are beginn=ing to see the crisis that is looming.


The Leave Alliance
[MENTION=20725]Lea[/MENTION]veHQ
1. Any serious examination our #Brexit trade negotiations suggests the UK is playing silly buggers and was never sincere about a deal and we're just going through the motions to pretend we tried. The headbangers have won. So now it's for them to explain what comes next.
Click to expand...

https://www.wto.org/
regards
DF
 


nicko31

nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
17,587
Gods country fortnightly


WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
25,843
portslade seagull said:
Get over it. Nice little love in you've all been having crying into your hankies
Click to expand...

I'm over it, I've made all the preparations I needed to ensure me and my family will have minimal impact from it.

And quite hoping for no deal, as I believe it's the quickest way to get re-entry of the EU, however long that takes (albeit, of course, on far worse terms, but still far better than we are going to get USA, China etc from Jan 1st).

But we're certainly not winners like you, Ppf, Johnson and Farage, no siree.

As I pointed out earlier, the majority of those who voted for Brexit and this government will be those most effected by them. (Well, you and Ppf at least, as I've no doubt Johnson and Farage have made similar preparations)

Tick tock :lolol:
 
Last edited:






A1X

A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
17,799
Deepest, darkest Sussex
portslade seagull said:
Get over it. Nice little love in you've all been having crying into your hankies
Click to expand...

As per my previous comment, Brexiters seem more desperate for Remainers to be upset than anything else, which is odd given hardly any Remainers are still actually upset.
 


You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Albion and Premier League latest from Sky Sports


Top
Link Here