[Politics] Brexit

clapham_gull · Nov 3, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
A thoughtful post.

Unfortunately the problem for me has always been how to persuade the electorate that supporting something a bit more left wing than the conservatives is something to vote for. Discussion of the definition of Marxism is an issue that is not conducive to this goal. Considering how much of one's beliefs are Marxist, if you are in the business of seeking election, is not conducive to getting elected.

To me the only way of nudging the tiller a bit leftward is to do it gently and, if people feel gain rather than pain, one can nudge a bit more. Mr Tony started such a process but forgot to keep nudging and, instead, became obsessed with the minutiae of retaining power.

The trouble with the current labour leadership is that they have failed to manage their public image, and have made it too easy for the right to pin a bit of paper saying 'kick me' on their collective arse. Consider, Mr Tony was extremely careful with his PR, and his ambitions were cautious (too cautious perhaps). Corbyn's plans are more radical so he needs to be even more careful, because if he frightens floating voters he won't win. 'No compromise with the electorate' is not a good strategy. So his efforts to fend off accusations of this that and the other have so far been unconvincing. I may be being kind here or harsh - depends on where you are standing; the only position of relevance to labour's electoral success is the so-far unpersuaded position.....

Anyway, softly softly, etc. The UK is better than it was when the likes of droopy rectum attended football matches and loomed over people in pubs, with his gaggle of all-white numpties chortling and guffawing at things they didn't and wouldn't and couldn't ever understand. Softly, softly....

Politics is very personality driven and it's wishful thinking to separate the people from the politics.

Labour could have the most forward thinking, progressive policies on earth but Corbyn and McDonnell are too strongly associated with the un-electable Labouty Party of the 1980s for many older voters.

They look like a vote back rather than forward.

clapham_gull · Nov 4, 2019

Accusations of antisemitism are far more damaging to the Labour than accusations of Marxism.

If the EHRC reports against them next year they are in all sorts of s*** especially if they end up paying damages.

Mo Gosfield · Nov 4, 2019

Lever said:
I think that sends a powerful message about where we are as a nation now; likewise the huge number of 'People's Vote' marchers emphasises a shift in voter attitude.....

Where are we as a nation now?
We are still as divided as ever. The EU is Marmite. You either love it or hate it. Thats why there is a divide. You will never unite these polarised attitudes. This thread amply demonstrates that. Barely a page goes by without someone heaping abuse at someone else just because they have an opposing view. We have become an intolerant society and we cannot change that.
The argument that we know a lot more now than in 2016 is utter bollox. Anyone with a jot of intelligence knew that there would be a downside to leaving the EU, that wording on the side of a bus meant little or nothing ( if you believed it, you are either painfully naive or haven't studied politics. Politics is a dirty, cut throat business involving half truths, misleading statements and downright lies. ) and that the EU is exactly the same now as it was before the referendum. Simplistic, yes, but the fact remains that if you claim to know a lot more now than in 2016, then you must have been going round with your eyes shut.
It may appear that there is a shift in voter attitude but that is because Remainers are far more active in protest and Brexiteers far more passive. If you talk to people, very few have changed their minds. Why should they? The underlying reasons they voted to Leave or Remain are exactly the same. There were no protests about not leaving on October 31st because most people looked at the timeframe, were sensible enough to know there would be at least one more extension and struggled to believe the PM.
This election will be about Leaving or Remaining. It won't be about detail in party manifestos. A lot of people will cast aside party allegiance and there will be a hell of a mess as a result.

Hugo Rune · Nov 4, 2019

Mo Gosfield said:
The EU is Marmite. You either love it or hate it..........The argument that we know a lot more now than in 2016 is utter bollox.

Two incredibly absurd statements.

On the first, plenty of remainers realise that there are a lot of failings with the EU; they don’t love it they just know that in order to compete on the world stage with the likes of China & the U.S, we need to be in the club. There is not a lot of love for the institution at all but love for the various countries on the continent.

I can’t find the words to address your second point because it is so astonishingly ludicrous. We know what the deal is now FFS! How on earth could we not know a lot more, what planet are you from?

I’ll concede that most leavers voted to end freedom of movement of EU nationals and don’t care about any other issues so have not learnt about them but you just can’t flag that ignorance as collective as it only applies to about 15% of the population.

Lever · Nov 4, 2019

Mo Gosfield said:
Where are we as a nation now?
We are still as divided as ever. The EU is Marmite. You either love it or hate it. Thats why there is a divide. You will never unite these polarised attitudes. This thread amply demonstrates that. Barely a page goes by without someone heaping abuse at someone else just because they have an opposing view. We have become an intolerant society and we cannot change that.
The argument that we know a lot more now than in 2016 is utter bollox. Anyone with a jot of intelligence knew that there would be a downside to leaving the EU, that wording on the side of a bus meant little or nothing ( if you believed it, you are either painfully naive or haven't studied politics. Politics is a dirty, cut throat business involving half truths, misleading statements and downright lies. ) and that the EU is exactly the same now as it was before the referendum. Simplistic, yes, but the fact remains that if you claim to know a lot more now than in 2016, then you must have been going round with your eyes shut.
It may appear that there is a shift in voter attitude but that is because Remainers are far more active in protest and Brexiteers far more passive. If you talk to people, very few have changed their minds. Why should they? The underlying reasons they voted to Leave or Remain are exactly the same. There were no protests about not leaving on October 31st because most people looked at the timeframe, were sensible enough to know there would be at least one more extension and struggled to believe the PM.
This election will be about Leaving or Remaining. It won't be about detail in party manifestos. A lot of people will cast aside party allegiance and there will be a hell of a mess as a result.

....and yet the gullible STILL believe the PM even though he won his place on the absolute promise of leaving the EU on October 31st. Some STILL have faith in him.... you really couldn't make it up. At least remain actually does mean remain.

Lincoln Imp · Nov 4, 2019

Mo Gosfield said:
Where are we as a nation now?
We are still as divided as ever. The EU is Marmite. You either love it or hate it. Thats why there is a divide. You will never unite these polarised attitudes. This thread amply demonstrates that. Barely a page goes by without someone heaping abuse at someone else just because they have an opposing view. We have become an intolerant society and we cannot change that.
The argument that we know a lot more now than in 2016 is utter bollox. Anyone with a jot of intelligence knew that there would be a downside to leaving the EU, that wording on the side of a bus meant little or nothing ( if you believed it, you are either painfully naive or haven't studied politics. Politics is a dirty, cut throat business involving half truths, misleading statements and downright lies. ) and that the EU is exactly the same now as it was before the referendum. Simplistic, yes, but the fact remains that if you claim to know a lot more now than in 2016, then you must have been going round with your eyes shut.
It may appear that there is a shift in voter attitude but that is because Remainers are far more active in protest and Brexiteers far more passive. If you talk to people, very few have changed their minds. Why should they? The underlying reasons they voted to Leave or Remain are exactly the same. There were no protests about not leaving on October 31st because most people looked at the timeframe, were sensible enough to know there would be at least one more extension and struggled to believe the PM.
This election will be about Leaving or Remaining. It won't be about detail in party manifestos. A lot of people will cast aside party allegiance and there will be a hell of a mess as a result.

...and I am afraid if you believe it meant nothing then you in turn know nothing at all about the arts of advertising, PR and manipulative communication. Or indeed about the views of Dominic Cummings, who was actually responsible for those wholly-misleading words on the bus and who happily agrees that they were crucially important in winning the referendum. You're analysing the sentence and taking each word literally. That was not what people did. The bus message was written to encapsulate and add meat to the recurring theme of 'take back control'. Fake, spurious, cynical meat for sure, but it looked kind of red and that didn't matter. All that mattered was the underlying message.

The stat that interests me is the one that shows that very few people were much bothered about the EU five years ago. I have no doubt that we are now a divided land but that division seems, given the 2015 statistic, largely confected. The apparent rage of the anti-EU half of the country has been carefully orchestrated. It isn't the first time such a thing has happened on this continent.

It won't be the last either - Isaac Levido, the man who won an election for Australia's 'Liberals' on the back of one childish and constantly repeated slogan ("The Bill you can't afford"), is now here and running the Tory campaign. Its core message will be just as simplistic, and just as effective.

If the election was simply about leaving and remaining then Remain would probably win it. It isn't and so it probably won't. Which is the real reason why Brexit Central needs to keep the water muddy if they are to achieve their prize. Another referendum is no good. It is too clean, too transparent. I know a lady who is the daughter of a hugely senior military officer. Her childhood was a glorious one in the dying days of empire. She is a good Anglican, a kind and gentle person, pillar of society and a member of the Conservative and Unionist Party. She is utterly appalled by Brexit. And she will vote Tory on 12 December. As Cummings well knows.

Lever · Nov 4, 2019

Lincoln Imp said:
...and I am afraid if you believe it meant nothing then you in turn know nothing at all about the arts of advertising, PR and manipulative communication. Or indeed about the views of Dominic Cummings, who was actually responsible for those wholly-misleading words on the bus and who happily agrees that they were crucially important in winning the referendum. You're analysing the sentence and taking each word literally. That was not what people did. The bus message was written to encapsulate and add meat to the recurring theme of 'take back control'. Fake, spurious, cynical meat for sure, but it looked kind of red and that didn't matter. All that mattered was the underlying message.

The stat that interests me is the one that shows that very few people were much bothered about the EU five years ago. I have no doubt that we are now a divided land but that division seems, given the 2015 statistic, largely confected. The apparent rage of the anti-EU half of the country has been carefully orchestrated. It isn't the first time such a thing has happened on this continent.

It won't be the last either - Isaac Levido, the man who won an election for Australia's 'Liberals' on the back of one childish and constantly repeated slogan ("The Bill you can't afford"), is now here and running the Tory campaign. Its core message will be just as simplistic, and just as effective.

If the election was simply about leaving and remaining then Remain would probably win it. It isn't and so it probably won't. Which is the real reason why Brexit Central needs to keep the water muddy if they are to achieve their prize. Another referendum is no good. It is too clean, too transparent. I know a lady who is the daughter of a hugely senior military officer. Her childhood was a glorious one in the dying days of empire. She is a good Anglican, a kind and gentle person, pillar of society and a member of the Conservative and Unionist Party. She is utterly appalled by Brexit. And she will vote Tory on 12 December. As Cummings well knows.

....and there you have it. It is impossible to effectively challenge emotion by using facts and logic.

theonlymikey · Nov 4, 2019

Pretty pink fairy said:
The current Labour leadership is a joke which will be put to rest at the ballot box, Corbyn ,McDonald and Abbot the three wise Monkeys totally unelectable to most reasonable folk
It's been emotional H
Regards
DH

The problem is, is that the people who say that Corbyn is un-electable believe this because there's lots of other people saying he is un-electable.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. But then, when you ask for specifics why he's un-electable, it's mostly because he is a Marxist (a lie) a terrorist sympathiser (a lie) an anti-Semite (a lie) and his policies will create more debt (half truth at best).

But the undoubted fact is, his and Labour policies poll well with a majority of the electorate. If you take away the lies about him, and the people who say he is un-electable vote for the polices instead of on who the leader is, a leader who by the way who has 1/650th of decision making power in the commons, he would be elected. It's a real shame a majority will not vote for their own standards of living and public services to get a unicorn Brexit which never existed and to make themselves worse off through tory polices whilst making the rich even richer.

Let us take the Labour nationalisation policies as an example. The CBI say they will increase public debt. In fact, we will be using public money to create a public ownership. As far as the balance sheet goes, we have the same amount of capital and we can reap the rewards of the profits. The public are already paying out the bum for privatisation through government subsidies.

I don’t know a single person who does not consider share holdings as part of their overall wealth, do you? And do you know what, if did go tits up, guess what? It’s a saleable asset. It’s a win win. Cannot say the same for reversing the damage of Brexit if it ever happened.

Vote Labour for real change because this country is currently the pits.

Blue Valkyrie · Nov 4, 2019

Just might have to hold my nose and vote for Corbyn if analysis shows that it will stop Mendacious Johnson's commitment-breaking version of Brexit.
( the broken commitment is being part of the free tradezone between Iceland and the border of Russia ).

WATFORD zero · Nov 4, 2019

Mo Gosfield said:
Where are we as a nation now?
We are still as divided as ever. The EU is Marmite. You either love it or hate it.

An early bid for the 'Two profs post of the day award' today :lolol:

I'm as hard line remainer as they come, but of course I don't 'love the EU' as that would be stupid.

It's a huge organisation with loads of things that desperately need changing, but if you want any sort of sustainable economy in 21st century, it's something that's necessary to be part of and you need to negotiate hard within it to ensure that your country's interests are fully represented.

Deciding now is the time to 'go it alone' against all the economic super powers and trading blocs that have built up over the last few decades around the world, would be as stupid as electing MEPs who won't turn up or participate, and allow every other EU member's interest to take priority over our own.

It really does remind me of my children when they were very young, incapable of putting together a line of reasoning and couldn't get their own way.

'I hate you' :facepalm:

beorhthelm · Nov 4, 2019

theonlymikey said:
Let us take the Labour nationalisation policies as an example. The CBI say they will increase public debt. In fact, we will be using public money to create a public ownership. As far as the balance sheet goes, we have the same amount of capital and we can reap the rewards of the profits. The public are already paying out the bum for privatisation through government subsidies.

I don’t know a single person who does not consider share holdings as part of their overall wealth, do you? And do you know what, if did go tits up, guess what? It’s a saleable asset. It’s a win win. Cannot say the same for reversing the damage of Brexit if it ever happened.

oh dear. it would be considered a high risk and foolish strategy to borrow money to buy shares. they will borrow money from the markets, which pays a yield which will be covered by profits when there are or taxation if not. it doesnt matter if the debt and the asset balance, theres still massive debt repayments to finance (and theoretically pay back capital eventually). other than the rail, government arent subsidising privatisation.

theonlymikey · Nov 4, 2019

beorhthelm said:
oh dear. it would be considered a high risk and foolish strategy to borrow money to buy shares. they will borrow money from the markets, which pays a yield which will be covered by profits when there are or taxation if not. it doesnt matter if the debt and the asset balance, theres still massive debt repayments to finance (and theoretically pay back capital eventually). other than the rail, government arent subsidising privatisation.

Speculate to accumulate?

The alternative is a continuation of the current, which clearly isn't working for the majority in this country.

Hard days graft -> Pay Day --> Taxes subside private shareholders of Train & Utilities --> Private shareholders keep all the profit.

That's a bang up deal for the average man on the street that is.

Fungus · Nov 4, 2019

Right, I've found a solution...

My wife was out leafleting this morning, and one irate householder came up with the following gem: "The only way out of this mess is to make Farage a dictator for a fixed period - one year, and then shoot him".

I wonder if Boris would see that as a win-win?

Lincoln Imp · Nov 4, 2019

Oxy McFloppie-Tish said:
Right, I've found a solution...

My wife was out leafleting this morning, and one irate householder came up with the following gem: "The only way out of this mess is to make Farage a dictator for a fixed period - one year, and then shoot him".

I wonder if Boris would see that as a win-win?

What sort of leaflets was she delivering?

Mellotron · Nov 4, 2019

BREAKING - Number 10 blocks Russia EU referendum report until after election.

Definitely nothing dodgy at all going on here. Definitely.

BBassic · Nov 4, 2019

Worrying thing about this election for me is it being the 'Brexit Election'.

People don't give a toss about what else is in the manifesto, all they care about is getting into the power the party that will attempt to deliver, or rescind, Brexit.

DavidinSouthampton · Nov 4, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Yep.

They are around my age and whiff of the student politics of the early 70s. To me, trying to understand the modern world on the basis of an analysis of the 19th century two class system by a philosopher of that time is almost as stupid as trying to understand the modern world by reading the Bible or Quran.

Speaking as someone who is soon to be retiring from working in a Church environment, it is not about trying to understand the modern world in terms of the Bible (or the Quran). It is about trying to apply Christian principles and teachings to the world in which we find ourselves today. It is not about "God made the world in 6 days and then had a day off" (ok for some people it is), but for anybody from the Churches with any sense it is about justice, tolerance, fairness, about our stewardship of the planet and its resources, about seeking peace etc etc etc.

For example, in Genesis God gives mankind (or personkind) "dominion" over the planet and all its resources - animals, plants etc. I am not a Hebrew Scholar or whatever, but the original meaning (which I would love to be able to read and understand) is about looking after, not plundering and using.

In terms of BREXIT, a general election and so on, the challenge would be to think about and come to conclusions about these matters in terms of those values. If, for example, someone's pro-BREXIT stance is based on an intolerant immigration and racist mindset, then that is clearly wrong.

Having said that, the Marx "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs" has always to me sounded fairly sensible, not a million miles from a sensible attitude to a Christian Faith, and something which was not lived out in the Soviet and Chinese Communist states. That is a grossly oversimplistic comment on a minute part of Marx's thinking, but there we are...….

DavidinSouthampton · Nov 4, 2019

Oxy McFloppie-Tish said:
Right, I've found a solution...

My wife was out leafleting this morning, and one irate householder came up with the following gem: "The only way out of this mess is to make Farage a dictator for a fixed period - one year, and then shoot him".

I wonder if Boris would see that as a win-win?

I find one part of that two-step solution to our current dilemma strangely attractive, …….. but would also be deterred from it because it would be somewhat illegal.

A1X · Nov 4, 2019

[TWEET]1191386612233646081[/TWEET]

I guess they must be blocking it because it exonerates them completely and they don't want people to think too highly of them.

The Clamp · Nov 4, 2019

Mellotron said:
BREAKING - Number 10 blocks Russia EU referendum report until after election.

Definitely nothing dodgy at all going on here. Definitely.

Yep. Dirty Tory ********.

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