[Politics] Brexit

JC Footy Genius · Oct 19, 2019

Dick Swiveller said:
That was not the point I was referring to. My question was whether or not the plan is to agree a deal and then scupper it to get the No Deal they have been blocked from by other methods.

They always wanted a deal in my view but thought the best way to achieve one was to appear deadly serious about going for no deal if necessary. Giving parliament a binary choice was/is the only way to finally get them to make a decision. The only way we get to no deal is if parliament rejects this deal or seeks to put back the decision yet again.

taz · Oct 19, 2019

The deal was done when Boris met the Irish pm 2 weeks ago, Boris to drop the D. u. p, in return for no extension from the EU,, quote from Mr junker "we look forward to starting trade talks on the 3rd of November, for a free trade with no tariffs or quota's,, just a reminder, we import more from EU than we export, it's time now to finish and move on

Pavilionaire · Oct 19, 2019

In the same way that I can't eat a curry or a greasy kebab in the daytime, I'm finding the House of Commons hard to stomach at the wèekend.

Apart from anything else, it's the building that does my nut. We should be having our parliament in a large, round, well-lit building with comfortable, adequate seating for all, but this is like we''ve hired Lancing College and crammed everybody in.

Face to face benches, it's like a bear pit, AND there's about 200 seats missing so hundreds of poor buggers have to stand. It leads to much finger pointing and very binary politics.

Pavilionaire · Oct 19, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
They always wanted a deal in my view but thought the best way to achieve one was to appear deadly serious about going for no deal if necessary. Giving parliament a binary choice was/is the only way to finally get them to make a decision. The only way we get to no deal is if parliament rejects this deal or seeks to put back the decision yet again.

I've got to say JCFG, any foot soldier would have wanted you alongside then in the trenches at Ypres. Your 24/7 devotion to a bonkers scheme is unstinting and unquestionable. You're like my wife - omnipresent.

pb21 · Oct 19, 2019

abc said:
Three types of MPs today:

Leavers: will vote for the deal
Remainers: will vote against
Undecided: trying to decide what the best thing is to do to keep their job in the next election

One type of Parliament: Useless, shameful and completely lost interest in the people they are supposed to serve

Also leavers who think this is a poor deal will likely vote against this, depending on their party Whip.

Grombleton · Oct 19, 2019

dingodan said:
The UK feels it's a good deal

Do we? Do we really?

Hampster Gull · Oct 19, 2019

abc said:
One type of Parliament: Useless, shameful and completely lost interest in the people they are supposed to serve

Not true. You misunderstand our democratic process in the U.K.. Parliamentarians are doing their job

dingodan · Oct 19, 2019

Here is how I see things going at this point:

If Letwin amendment passes. MP's feel able to vote down the deal with protection of a delay meaning they are off the hook.

Gov't withdraw bill until Monday (this has been suggested as what will happen).

Gov't will request a delay.

Then two possibilities:

A) The EU refuse delay. They should do this if they want the deal to pass, because it's the only way it will happen.

MP's have a clear choice on Monday. This deal or no deal. The deal will pass.

B) The EU accept delay.

Before the deal is moved on Monday, a bill calling for a GE is moved (MP's have always said, "get an extension, then we will agree to an election").

A GE is accepted, the bill passing or not doesn't matter. We wait and see what happens in a GE. I don't see how opposition parties can refuse a GE once there is an extension, the optics of that would be terrible, they have barely been able to justify refusing a GE so far.

BensGrandad · Oct 19, 2019

It has been suggested that 18 of the rebel Tory MPs including Nicholas Soames will vote with the government. We must just hope that 12 - 15 Labour MPs see sense and vote as per their constituents rather than as per Corbyn who will refuse the deal irrespective of its values and merits or otherwise. Oliver Letwing is a disgrace only interested in self preservation.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Oct 19, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
I've got to say JCFG, any foot soldier would have wanted you alongside then in the trenches at Ypres. Your 24/7 devotion to a bonkers scheme is unstinting and unquestionable. You're like my wife - omnipresent.

I admire your patience.

Blue Valkyrie · Oct 19, 2019

BensGrandad said:
It has been suggested that 18 of the rebel Tory MPs including Nicholas Soames will vote with the government. We must just hope that 12 - 15 Labour MPs see sense and vote as per their constituents rather than as per Corbyn who will refuse the deal irrespective of its values and merits or otherwise.

Agreed.

BensGrandad said:
Oliver Letwing is a disgrace only interested in self preservation.

I don't know who this Letwing fellow is, but Oliver Letwin is standing down at the next election, so not not sure what self preservation you are referring to, assuming you mean him.

JC Footy Genius · Oct 19, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
In the same way that I can't eat a curry or a greasy kebab in the daytime, I'm finding the House of Commons hard to stomach at the wèekend.

Apart from anything else, it's the building that does my nut. We should be having our parliament in a large, round, well-lit building with comfortable, adequate seating for all, but this is like we''ve hired Lancing College and crammed everybody in.

Face to face benches, it's like a bear pit, AND there's about 200 seats missing so hundreds of poor buggers have to stand. It leads to much finger pointing and very binary politics.

I did the tour with a friend a few weeks ago, you are right it's an archaic, claustrophobic bear pit. The urge to leave a message in the readily accessible pigeon-holes of MPs or deposit something on the speaker's chair was almost unbearable ...

Pavilionaire said:
I've got to say JCFG, any foot soldier would have wanted you alongside then in the trenches at Ypres. Your 24/7 devotion to a bonkers scheme is unstinting and unquestionable. You're like my wife - omnipresent.

Many thanks. High praise indeed

BensGrandad · Oct 19, 2019

Blue Valkyrie said:
Agreed.

I don't know who this Letwing fellow is, but Oliver Letwin is standing down at the next election, so not not sure what self preservation you are referring to, assuming you mean him.

Sorry mispelt the p...ts name.

Pretty pink fairy · Oct 19, 2019

Dick Swiveller said:
You say that but I saw someone retweet Caroline Lucas yesterday and her point seemed a real possibility to me.
[TWEET]1185125408162889728[/TWEET]

I have never claimed to understand the ins and outs of the detailed mechanics but given that Rees Mogg et al have changed their tune and it would appear that the new deal is no real difference from the old one - maybe worse - then this thought pattern makes sense to me. Anyone who understands it more care to explain if this is/isn't likely?

Caroline Lucas

regards
DF

Westdene Seagull · Oct 19, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
Well I believe that given this Withdrawal Agreement is going to put us into further years of uncertainty and economic stagnation while the negotiations for the actual 'deal' get underway then the sensible thing to do, is to check with the electorate

Fine by me - lets get a GE under way. Ahhhh ..... Corbyn is too much of a coward !

Pretty pink fairy · Oct 19, 2019

BensGrandad said:
It has been suggested that 18 of the rebel Tory MPs including Nicholas Soames will vote with the government. We must just hope that 12 - 15 Labour MPs see sense and vote as per their constituents rather than as per Corbyn who will refuse the deal irrespective of its values and merits or otherwise. Oliver Letwing is a disgrace only interested in self preservation.

Throw in Lucas ,chucky Subery, Starmers and Swinson for good measure
Regards
DF

abc · Oct 19, 2019

Hampster Gull said:
Not true. You misunderstand our democratic process in the U.K.. Parliamentarians are doing their job

I can assure you I don't and they are not.

Parliament has two key responsibilities: 1. To represent the views of the people 2. To represent the best interests of the country.

Both the Conservatives and Labour fought an election promising to respect the referendum. Parliament voted to do the same. Yet 3 years down the road they still haven't (I say this as an ardent remainer). A deal to leave was agreed with the EU but Parliament (including Tories that wanted to leave!) rejected it. The Gov called for an election to let the people decide: All the opposition parties refused to go to the people. Labour argued that his was to stop no deal. We now have another deal and the chance to avoid no deal. Labour have rejected this again and will vote against the deal. They have also failed to table a vote of no confidence and thus an election.

The country needs to move forward and Parliament are determined to play continual and damaging political power games that are crippling the country.

How can you possibly, possibly say this is 'Parliamentarians doing their job'?!

Yoda · Oct 19, 2019

abc said:
I can assure you I don't and they are not.

Parliament has two key responsibilities: 1. To represent the views of the people 2. To represent the best interests of the country.

Both the Conservatives and Labour fought an election promising to respect the referendum. Parliament voted to do the same. Yet 3 years down the road they still haven't (I say this as an ardent remainer). A deal to leave was agreed with the EU but Parliament (including Tories that wanted to leave!) rejected it. The Gov called for an election to let the people decide: All the opposition parties refused to go to the people. Labour argued that his was to stop no deal. We now have another deal and the chance to avoid no deal. Labour have rejected this again and will vote against the deal. They have also failed to table a vote of no confidence and thus an election.

The country needs to move forward and Parliament are determined to play continual and damaging political power games that are crippling the country.

How can you possibly, possibly say this is 'Parliamentarians doing their job'?!

The unfortunate thing with Brexit, is that there are a lot of Tory MP's putting their party first to keep them in power because if they don't deliver Brexit they know they will lose a GE. They are putting this before they try to represent the view of the people and in doing so looking for a harder Brexit than needed, which in turn will have a negative impact on the best interests of the Country.

An MP's first priority is Country, then the People they represent, then the Party. We have a Government acting in reverse.

abc · Oct 19, 2019

Yoda said:
The unfortunate thing with Brexit, is that there are a lot of Tory MP's putting their party first to keep them in power because if they don't deliver Brexit they know they will lose a GE. They are putting this before they try to represent the view of the people and in doing so looking for a harder Brexit than needed, which in turn will have a negative impact on the best interests of the Country.

An MP's first priority is Country, then the People they represent, then the Party. We have a Government acting in reverse.

I agree, and an opposition doing exactly the same

beorhthelm · Oct 19, 2019

abc said:
I can assure you I don't and they are not.

Parliament has two key responsibilities: 1. To represent the views of the people 2. To represent the best interests of the country.

Both the Conservatives and Labour fought an election promising to respect the referendum. Parliament voted to do the same. Yet 3 years down the road they still haven't (I say this as an ardent remainer). A deal to leave was agreed with the EU but Parliament (including Tories that wanted to leave!) rejected it. The Gov called for an election to let the people decide: All the opposition parties refused to go to the people. Labour argued that his was to stop no deal. We now have another deal and the chance to avoid no deal. Labour have rejected this again and will vote against the deal. They have also failed to table a vote of no confidence and thus an election.

The country needs to move forward and Parliament are determined to play continual and damaging political power games that are crippling the country.

How can you possibly, possibly say this is 'Parliamentarians doing their job'?!

pretty good summary. its a shame we cant vote them all out and have a fresh set.

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