[Politics] Brexit

Hampster Gull · Oct 18, 2019

Weststander said:
From day one, in 2016, I’d have loved a compromise ending such as that.

But in the Commons, and NSC funnily enough, almost everyone seemed polarised, either

a. The EU is incredible, has no issues, the ever growing integration should not be questioned, and anyone questioning that is less intelligent than me and a racist. Starmer, Lucas, Soubry, etc for all their supposed integrity and intellect, were determined not to listen to one word from the 52%, to scupper absolutely any change in our relationship with the EU. Or

b. We want out, a hard Brexit, whatever the cost to our economy. Nationalism and Trump is the way to go. Farage, The ERG, were determined not to listen to one word from the 48%.

Wise words WS, it’s been too easy for people, including me, to polarise

vegster · Oct 18, 2019

Lincoln Imp said:
If Letwin's amendment is passed (which it may well be, given that there is an untrustworthy liar in Downing Street) it would presumably mean that the Kyle/Wilson amendment would not even be tabled. Johnson will then have profited hugely from his horrible reputation. The Leavers appear to be getting the England they always wanted.

How have we fallen so far and so fast as a country to end up with Boris Johnson as an unelected Prime Minister ? I remember all the arguments about the " Dodgy Dossier" surrounding the invasion of Iraq being a huge controversy at the time. Blair was close to being kicked out in disgrace, however, we now have the illegal proroguing of Parliament, the exceptionally murky relationship between Johnson and the businesswoman and now the lies of " No Prime Minister could ever sign up for a border in the Irish Sea ".... utterly incredible. How is this bloke in power ?

Lincoln Imp · Oct 18, 2019

Hampster Gull said:
Wise words WS, it’s been too easy for people, including me, to polarise

Sadly though he couldn't resist the old trope about how supporters of the EU project regard anyone who disagrees with them as a racist. It's a bit wearying.

I have a number of friends who voted leave. None of them is a racist.

Weststander · Oct 18, 2019

Lincoln Imp said:
Sadly though he couldn't resist the old trope about how supporters of the EU project regard anyone who disagrees with them as a racist. It's a bit wearying.

I have a number of friends who voted leave. None of them is a racist.

...

nicko31 · Oct 18, 2019

pb21 said:
I don't really get this either. He has got a deal by removing one of our red lines, which he was forced to do by him saying we would leave by November and then no deal being almost certainly ruled out by Parliament.

As soon as our red lines went a deal was very feasible.

The backstop of course is now the front stop, ie an NI only backstop. Every MP that backs the deal is signing the deal knell of United Kingdom

Great work Boris...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/world/europe/johnson-brexit-uk-fracture.html

nicko31 · Oct 18, 2019

Hampster Gull said:
You’re right but too late. A good compromise given a 50:50 was always the answer to unite the country. That’s not what we had and this isn’t either. Norway exit was the answer to unite. This is just a joke

It is a joke, a bit like remain winning in 2016 and saying, right we've got our 52 / 48, now lets joined the Euro and join Schengen.

Lincoln Imp · Oct 18, 2019

Weststander said:
...

Weststander · Oct 18, 2019

Lincoln Imp said:

I initially got the wrong end of the stick in replying to you. These are turbulent times :smile:

dejavuatbtn · Oct 18, 2019

I am coming to the conclusion that we may have been better off trying to influence (or indeed prevent) change within the EU. Referendums would be of far more value if used to influence change within the EU to make it the sort of place most level headed people would want it to be, allowing each country to manage its own affairs and borders within an agreed framework. The whole thing got out of control in more ways that I ever thought possible. The people running it just don’t get that a lot of people out there think they are running it like some club.

Hampster Gull · Oct 18, 2019

nicko31 said:
It is a joke, a bit like remain winning in 2016 and saying, right we've got our 52 / 48, now lets joined the Euro and join Schengen.

And there you go again. It’s not a joke, the leave campaign leaders were frauds, you’ve been found out, there was a way through this but it was the extreme polarising solution that was demanded. This isn’t win lose, at the moment we’ve all lost

Weststander · Oct 18, 2019

dejavuatbtn said:
I am coming to the conclusion that we may have been better off trying to influence (or indeed prevent) change within the EU. Referendums would be of far more value if used to influence change within the EU to make it the sort of place most level headed people would want it to be, allowing each country to manage its own affairs and borders within an agreed framework. The whole thing got out of control in more ways that I ever thought possible. The people running it just don’t get that a lot of people out there think they are running it like some club.

A problem with that is that as the EU has grown, one player such as the UK couldn’t truly influence the EU’s inexorable development.

Club - Corbyn has spent the last 40 years calling the EEC/EC/EU a capitalist club.

Pavilionaire · Oct 18, 2019

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
I'm getting the totally depressing realisation that a 2nd referendum would result in the same result as the first. (This is as function of my not flattering view of the UK's electorate.) I'm almost getting to the point where I'd welcome a 'get on with it' vote to be put out of our Remainer misery. At least we'd have some fun watching the farce unfold and earn the right to say 'I told you so' for eternity.

A Second Referendum would be hard to call because in 2016 some 13 million didn't vote, with many saying they didn't know enough about the issues one way or the other.

We've since had 3 years of solid Brexit news, it's been impossible to escape the issues and it's how those people vote that will be key. Of the other 34 million that voted, 90-95% will vote the same way.

clapham_gull · Oct 18, 2019

Weststander said:
A problem with that is that as the EU has grown, one player such as the UK couldn’t truly influence the EU’s inexorable development.

Only if it was acting alone. Whilst many EU countries play the public face of unity, behind the scenes many are gutted the UK is leaving because it had so much influence on issues they agreed with.

This why most of the world is struggling with the UKs decision. Why leave a bloc you have so much influence over to become a little independent country with very little.

Weststander · Oct 19, 2019

clapham_gull said:
Only if it was acting alone. Whilst many EU countries play the public face of unity, behind the scenes many are gutted the UK is leaving because it had so much influence on issues they agreed with.

This why most of the world is struggling with the UKs decision. Why leave a bloc you have so much influence over to become a little independent country with very little.

So much truth in what you say.

in following the cerebral (non hyperbole/stirring it up) commentators over the years such as Katya Adler and Anna Holligan, and also German media people for example; they emphasise over and over again that the UK has many friends across Europe. Often citing Germany, The Netherlands and Scandinavian nations, across peoples, businesses and leaders. Adler often says that Germany will be sad to lose a close ally, like minded in the way the EU should act for business and entrepreneurs.

sully · Oct 19, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
A Second Referendum would be hard to call because in 2016 some 13 million didn't vote, with many saying they didn't know enough about the issues one way or the other.

We've since had 3 years of solid Brexit news, it's been impossible to escape the issues and it's how those people vote that will be key. Of the other 34 million that voted, 90-95% will vote the same way.

If only this was true.

We went out with family last night and I was shocked that none of them had the faintest knowledge / interest in what was going on right now apart from M-I-L saying she’s always wanted to be part of Europe and is horrified that we might leave. She still had no knowledge of this new deal or what it might mean and didn’t even want to understand what “trade deals” might be.

My fear is that this is far more representative of the population as a whole and that not that many really understand what this decision really means for the country.

That’s why the original referendum should never have been called and why the members of parliament should do what they truly think is the right thing for the country regardless of what that referendum result was. However, it seems that even they don’t grasp the enormity of what is happening and are just playing their usual party politics.

It saddens me a great deal that we are where we are.

Motogull · Oct 19, 2019

In my opinion if Alexander Boris de Piffle bungle**** Johnson's proposal gets voted through today then there should be a referendum to choose between accepting it or remaining.

Ernest · Oct 19, 2019

May well be a short day after all, if the Letwin amendment is passed the Tories are going to pull the vote

Baldseagull · Oct 19, 2019

Motogull said:
In my opinion if Alexander Boris de Piffle bungle**** Johnson's proposal gets voted through today then there should be a referendum to choose between accepting it or remaining.

There will be an attempt to get that tagged on today I believe, and if it does not get through today, it may well come back to Parliament with a referendum attached.
Johnson is going to get most if not all of the ERG onside for this one, with the threat of it coming back with a referendum attached if they don't, which could kill Brexit, plus this withdrawal opens up the possibility of no deal again. But what brings the ERG on side could prevent Labour rebels from voting for it. Given Labours position on Brexit, if we have actually left by the time of the next election, they will not fare well, if we go to one without having left I feel it will be the Tories that suffer, party politics will still play a part in decisions today.

Deleted member 2719 · Oct 19, 2019

Campbell

I thought he had retired. (wish)

Full of bull***t.

Dick Swiveller · Oct 19, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
A Second Referendum would be hard to call because in 2016 some 13 million didn't vote, with many saying they didn't know enough about the issues one way or the other.

We've since had 3 years of solid Brexit news, it's been impossible to escape the issues and it's how those people vote that will be key. Of the other 34 million that voted, 90-95% will vote the same way.

Factor in the combination of Vox Pops saying they voted remain but want the democratic process obeyed offset against the people that have changed their mind after voting leave and I have no idea how it would go. And before the usual suspects start braying, the latter definitely exist. For a start, I live with one. And of our small team at work (who all voted Leave), 2 out of the 4 would change their vote.

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