[Politics] Brexit

Thunder Bolt · Oct 18, 2019

dingodan said:
"You don't want a deal!"

*Gets a deal*

"You don't want an amicable trade, customs, or political agreement in the transition period!"

Yeah there is a con going on alright.

Deal/agreement this is just a way of getting round the Benn Act. They've been clever, I'll give you that.

Pretty pink fairy · Oct 18, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
You realise you are now on the same side as a serial liar (he has been sacked twice for lying) Nigel Farage and Jacob Rees-Mogg.
Do you really want them to ride roughshod over the rest of the MPs in Parliament which is tantamount to a dictatorship?

The result of the referendum has been honoured by triggering Article 50. The rest of the unholy mess is because nobody knows how to leave the EU without damage.

No such thing , you need a reality check sweetie
regards
DF

dingodan · Oct 18, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Deal/agreement this is just a way of getting round the Benn Act. They've been clever, I'll give you that.

If that were the case, then once the deal is passed and the Benn Act has been circumvented, the gov won't move legislation to enact the deal, instead they will no deal on 31st.

You believe that?

Thunder Bolt · Oct 18, 2019

DavidinSouthampton said:
He can't ride roughshod over everyone! he needs a certain number of people - like just over half the HoC - to back his plan.

A plan they haven't had sight of yet, consisting of 500 pages, with just 90 minutes to debate it. Blind leading the blind.

dingodan · Oct 18, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
A plan they haven't had sight of yet, consisting of 500 pages, with just 90 minutes to debate it. Blind leading the blind.

500 pages, of which most are the plan they have had sight of for a long long time.

The only thing changed is the main protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland which runs to just 15 pages – 64 pages including the annexes.

But you probably knew that already.

Thunder Bolt · Oct 18, 2019

dingodan said:
If that were the case, then once the deal is passed and the Benn Act has been circumvented, the gov won't move legislation to enact the deal, instead they will no deal on 31st.

You believe that?

No, if the deal is passed we move into the transition period which lasts from October 31st to December 31st 2020.
The transition period is supposed to be to work out trade deals etc. All Johnson has to do is prevaricate for the 14 months.

Even the trade unions can see what a con it is.

[tweet]1185112676428668928[/tweet]

ManOfSussex · Oct 18, 2019

I've met 3 Tory MP's in person in my life and in their own way they were each disdainful and duplicitous in retrospect. Johnson's antics here don't surprise me at all because it shows, yet again, that you simply cannot trust the Tories. You can't.

Sent from a shop doorway in Eastbourne whilst drinking a can of Kestrel lager.

beorhthelm · Oct 18, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
The result of the referendum has been honoured by triggering Article 50. The rest of the unholy mess is because nobody knows how to leave the EU without damage.

this is good point and i wonder if the collective forces of remain got behind such a message it would take hold.

Thunder Bolt said:
Deal/agreement this is just a way of getting round the Benn Act. They've been clever, I'll give you that.

a fixed time withdrawal agreement was always the intended destination of a deal, not to get around anything.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Oct 18, 2019

DavidinSouthampton said:
He can't ride roughshod over everyone! he needs a certain number of people - like just over half the HoC - to back his plan.

These people wouldn't back ANY plan. Ever. Their focus is on winning general elections (Labour, Lib Dems) independence (SNP) or just carrying on being being an intransigent medieval NI party on the wrong side of history (DUP)

Biggest argument for proportional representation there ever was.

Thunder Bolt · Oct 18, 2019

dingodan said:
500 pages, of which most are the plan they have had sight of for a long long time.

The only thing changed is the main protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland which runs to just 15 pages – 64 pages including the annexes.

But you probably knew that already.

I didn't and neither do the MPs who are tweeting about it.

The Conservative Whip Office don't even know who their own MPs are. Sam Gyimah received a phone call from them asking him to make sure he backed Johnson.

Deleted member 2719 · Oct 18, 2019

Not been on here today.

Has the panic set in via the lib dems and Labour party yet, project fear part 2

JC Footy Genius · Oct 18, 2019

Tom Hark said:
There's no deal on earth that would ever satisfy 'the concerns' of Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Green. Therefore BJ needs to ride roughshod over them by whatever means possible to honour the result of the referendum in order to maintain faith in the democratic value of casting your vote. Everything else comes a poor second IMHO.

Spot on. Critics of May's deal, Leave.EU supports this deal .. ...Nobel Prize winner, an architect of the GFA, David Trimble supports the deal, the CBI welcomes the deal ... even the Chairman of the official Britain Stronger in Europe campaign, Stuart Rose supports the deal. Time for this failed zombie parliament to finally honour the referendum result or go to the country and face the consequences.

dingodan · Oct 18, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
No, if the deal is passed we move into the transition period which lasts from October 31st to December 31st 2020.
The transition period is supposed to be to work out trade deals etc. All Johnson has to do is prevaricate for the 14 months.

Even the trade unions can see what a con it is.

[tweet]1185112676428668928[/tweet]

"Even the trade unions"...What is that supposed to mean. Are the Labour Party (trade unions) likely to say anything else?

"All Johnson has to do is prevaricate for the 14 months." You've been watching remainers for too long. Not everyone behaves in such a cynical way. JC declared he couldn't accept the deal before he even read it. Keir Starmer railed against a document he was given during the Brexit talks under May, a document which was a copy and paste of his own proposals.

Most opposition to this don't care what it says or what it does. It's from a Conservative PM, so it's bad. So many are just playing politics with this. "Don't give a "win" to Boris Johnson", is the message, regardless of what is best for the country, it's all politics and people are sick of it.

Again I ask you, who wants a WTO situation, when a trade deal is possible? Why would anyone not want to do a trade deal?

Pavilionaire · Oct 18, 2019

dingodan said:
500 pages, of which most are the plan they have had sight of for a long long time.

The only thing changed is the main protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland which runs to just 15 pages – 64 pages including the annexes.

But you probably knew that already.

And no Economic Impact Assessments of the Boris Deal sent to MPs, so being asked to vote tomorrow on something without knowing the projected outcome. It stinks.

RexCathedra · Oct 18, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
And no Economic Impact Assessments of the Boris Deal sent to MPs, so being asked to vote tomorrow on something without knowing the projected outcome. It stinks.

I don't think it's quite fair to say no one knows the projected outcome.

Everyone knows what unicorns are. Everyone's seen a rainbow.

Mellotron · Oct 18, 2019

beorhthelm said:
likewise there is no majority for an alternative either. if the opposition groups could pick either referendum or revoke and stay with it, they could defeat the government's course of action. if they vote down the deal i hope they have the conviction to offer an alternative.

Sorry, you misunderstand me - and understandably so, as I wasn't clear.

I am referring to the 2016 vote. From that cannot glean a mandate for any one form of Brexit.

Pretty much the entire issue of the last 3 years really stems in the overly simplistic language on the voting paper, in my opinion. There are many, many different forms of Brexit, some of which would be massively opposed by plenty who voted to Leave.

Is it PotG? · Oct 18, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
And no Economic Impact Assessments of the Boris Deal sent to MPs, so being asked to vote tomorrow on something without knowing the projected outcome. It stinks.

So they'd prefer the uncertainty of No Deal. Fairly Dos.

Pretty pink fairy · Oct 18, 2019

Mouldy Boots said:
Not been on here today.

Has the panic set in via the lib dems and Labour party yet, project fear part 2

Running around like headless chickens Mouldy , normal service has been resumed
regards
DF

Pavilionaire · Oct 18, 2019

Putting my own views on Brexit to one side, I have to say that - politically - the Irish protocol element of Boris's Deal is a work of genius. In one move he's managed to achieve the following:

1. Avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland.
2. Get Stormont an option to opt out of the consent for the UK/EU Customs Union exercisable every 4 years, thereby respecting the Good Friday Agreement.
3. See point 3. Thereby giving them - and not Westminster - the problem of what to do about a hard border if they choose to opt out of the EU arrangement in the future.
4. Force Northern Ireland closer to the Republic of Ireland - and thereby make unification more likely. Although they are the Conservative and Unionist Party I'm not convinced they see Northern Ireland as anything other than an inconvenience anymore, in much the same way as a company might wish to sell off a loss-making and resource consuming part of its business.
5. F**k over the DUP and get some revenge for the £1 billion its cost the UK and the kowtowing the Tories have had to do over the last 2 1/2 years.

Pretty pink fairy · Oct 18, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
Putting my own views on Brexit to one side, I have to say that - politically - the Irish protocol element of Boris's Deal is a work of genius. In one move he's managed to achieve the following:

1. Avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland.
2. Get Stormont an option to opt out of the consent for the UK/EU Customs Union exercisable every 4 years, thereby respecting the Good Friday Agreement.
3. See point 3. Thereby giving them - and not Westminster - the problem of what to do about a hard border if they choose to opt out of the EU arrangement in the future.
4. Force Northern Ireland closer to the Republic of Ireland - and thereby make unification more likely. Although they are the Conservative and Unionist Party I'm not convinced they see Northern Ireland as anything other than an inconvenience anymore, in much the same way as a company might wish to sell off a loss-making and resource consuming part of its business.
5. F**k over the DUP and get some revenge for the £1 billion its cost the UK and the kowtowing the Tories have had to do over the last 2 1/2 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...exit-deal-ahead-of-commons-vote-politics-live
regards
DF

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