[Politics] Brexit

Goliath · Oct 14, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Sonia loses her job in the supermarket because everyone is now using self checkouts. She left school without a GCSE but that's ok because she can now become a nurse.
She will have to study to get her uni qualifications, claiming benefits because she isn't working, but that's ok. Two years later, she's done it, and then has to borrow £9K for uni fees over the next three years (which will never be paid back because her wages are so low) and finally three years later she's now a nurse.

In the meantime, qualified European nurses are leaving in their droves because they've been assaulted in the hospitals and told to go home. A friend who was pregnant was kicked in the stomach by a man.

So you are saying take the easy route.Don't train British people but employ nurses from abroad?
Breaking news.Brexit doesn't mean an end to ALL EU nationals moving here.

Goliath · Oct 14, 2019

lawros left foot said:
What’s your source?
The Migration Advisory Commitee calculate that the average migrant from the EEA, contributes £78,000 over their lifetime. And that is 2017 prices, so it’s obviously gone up now.

Are you saying that if migrants did not do certain jobs(for less wages) then Brits would not do them and so we would lose tax money?

Thunder Bolt · Oct 14, 2019

Goliath said:
So you are saying take the easy route.Don't train British people but employ nurses from abroad?
Breaking news.Brexit doesn't mean an end to ALL EU nationals moving here.

This Tory government took away the nurses bursary to make it more difficult for British people to train.
This Tory government is making it more difficult for immigrants to come & work in our NHS.

Why? Because they want to sell it off.

Baldseagull · Oct 14, 2019

Goliath said:
Is it wrong for a person to wish to preserve their cultureTake it 20/30 years into the future and imagine we hadn't voted leave,can you imagine the percentage of migrants in this country from the EU not even taking into account the percentage from non EU countries.How many towns and cities in the UK would have British people in the minority?

Imagine this country was poor and it was for example Poland that was rich and everyone was moving there.Do you think they would be happy?No.Would Bulgaria or Romania be happy if they were rich and everyone was moving thereNo.We are often accused of being racist by the same nations who if they were in a similar position to us would also probably vote leave.Every country is proud of its culture and heritage.Simple.

What part of British culture do Europeans erode by being here? Is it the Garlic bread being on every menu these days?

Thunder Bolt · Oct 14, 2019

Goliath said:
Is it wrong for a person to wish to preserve their cultureTake it 20/30 years into the future and imagine we hadn't voted leave,can you imagine the percentage of migrants in this country from the EU not even taking into account the percentage from non EU countries.How many towns and cities in the UK would have British people in the minority?

Imagine this country was poor and it was for example Poland that was rich and everyone was moving there.Do you think they would be happy?No.Would Bulgaria or Romania be happy if they were rich and everyone was moving thereNo.We are often accused of being racist by the same nations who if they were in a similar position to us would also probably vote leave.Every country is proud of its culture and heritage.Simple.

What is British culture? Cricket? Our teams have West Indians & Kiwis. Football? How many nationalities play for the Albion?
Our prime minister is a son of an immigrant.
Our armed forces are full of immigrants. Admiral Lord Nelson defeated Napolean at the Battle of Trafalgar on board HMS Victory, with a crew made up of 22 different nationalities.

Whatever you think English cultures is, it doesn't exist. The Crusaders were mainly French. King Richard the Lionheart lived in France for most of his life, and only spoke French.
St George was Middle Eastern.

Bodian · Oct 14, 2019

Blue Valkyrie said:
Yes, it would be down to us. Although it all happens earlier in the process. The proposals are agreed with consent between EFTA members and the EU - and genuine consent, not token.

However, if a country is in the EU, then the the EU position is determined by Qualified Majority Voting, and if the member country is outvoted then too bad - it has to take the law. Which is the problem, as some see it, now.

A lot of these laws I suspect don't really matter in practice to 'the individual in the street', but nevertheless they are imposed - and when thinking about that, to me it seems a bad thing. And they feed unfortunately into the 'unelected bureaucrat' narratives.

I think this is part of the issue. To a Remainer, leaving to avoid having a few laws imposed upon us that don't actually matter much to the individual in the street, doesn't really seem worth all the trauma and upheaval. To Leavers it does.

And I suppose that with such an emotional issue, the logic and evidence gets lost in the feelings. I've recently been dealing with an issue at work where the two sides are so entrenched in their views that they basically refuse to hear anything the other side have to say - let alone talk to them. We've been the piggy in the middle, and have had to make a decision based on the evidence. But when that evidence is basically people's emotions - it's virtually an impossible thing to do.

Bodian · Oct 14, 2019

dingodan said:
This basically sums up the situation. One word: Intransigence.

According to those on here who want to remain, people who want to leave have no reason to want to leave. Those of us who want to leave have explained countless times why we want to leave. We are consistently met with a deliberately obtuse response.

Just consider for a moment that what you are doing is saying that 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU, the numbers who wanted to leave vs remain continue to be basically the same, and yet those who want to leave have no reason. Think about that.

So many of you simply cannot bring yourselves to listen, hear, understand, acknowledge, and then respecfully hold a different opinion. Your answer is always simply that you have no idea what we are talking about.

You act like the playground bully who grabs another kid by the arm and uses it to hit him, the whole time asking, "why are you hitting yourself? Stop hitting yourself!"

You put your hands over your ears and yell "I can't hear what you are saying, speak up". You cover your eyes and say "Nope, sorry, can't see it".

It has long become pointless to engage with you.

Firstly - I am not a bully, and quite resent the implication that I am.
Secondly - my post was quite clearly written in the third party to try and distance the discussion from our own views and personal opinions, so it is quite a shame that you felt the need to respond in such personal terms.

lawros left foot · Oct 14, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
What is British culture? Cricket? Our teams have West Indians & Kiwis. Football? How many nationalities play for the Albion?
Our prime minister is a son of an immigrant.
Our armed forces are full of immigrants. Admiral Lord Nelson defeated Napolean at the Battle of Trafalgar on board HMS Victory, with a crew made up of 22 different nationalities.

Whatever you think English cultures is, it doesn't exist. The Crusaders were mainly French. King Richard the Lionheart lived in France for most of his life, and only spoke French.
St George was Middle Eastern.

And Churchill was half American.

Baldseagull · Oct 14, 2019

Goliath said:
Is it wrong for a person to wish to preserve their cultureTake it 20/30 years into the future and imagine we hadn't voted leave,can you imagine the percentage of migrants in this country from the EU not even taking into account the percentage from non EU countries.How many towns and cities in the UK would have British people in the minority?

Imagine this country was poor and it was for example Poland that was rich and everyone was moving there.Do you think they would be happy?No.Would Bulgaria or Romania be happy if they were rich and everyone was moving thereNo.We are often accused of being racist by the same nations who if they were in a similar position to us would also probably vote leave.Every country is proud of its culture and heritage.Simple.

I read a piece on Wisbech a while back and the displeasure of the locals shown towards Polish people living there, someone commented on the piece and said, "in fairness to the locals, there is a huge cultural difference between the locals and the Polish, in that the Polish want to work"

Thunder Bolt · Oct 14, 2019

Baldseagull said:
I read a piece on Wisbech a while back and the displeasure of the locals shown towards Polish people living there, someone commented on the piece and said, "in fairness to the locals, there is a huge cultural difference between the locals and the Polish, in that the Polish want to work"

There's a Polish war memorial near Chailey in a pub garden (The Plough) commemorating the Polish airmen who flew in the RAF 39-45.
Their base was called RAF Chailey.

Ecosse Exile · Oct 14, 2019

Lever said:
Don't know about that but wonder if this helps to show the PM still has some tricks up his sleeve.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nP35Vgz7z8

Yeah, it's all hypotheticals but he could be right, his scenario whereby Labour MP's probably wont be forced to toe the party line, i think they absolutely will. Labour want an election, Boris failing to secure a deal and being forced to agree an extension, leaves him looking even weaker than he already does, a vote of no confidence will probably succeed and then we move on to move on to an election.
Are Labour strong enough to win it? I'd say they are stronger than at any point since Corbyn took charge, and for anyone who feels strongly enough about remaining, whatever their political allegiances, surely four years of Labour in return for another referendum is not too high a price to pay.

Ecosse Exile · Oct 14, 2019

Baldseagull said:
In this case the representative is being coerced by the Parliament he is the representative of, and the threat is the law of the State in question. I believe the Vienna convention Article 51 does not apply in this case. It seems to me that the intention is in preventing an individual being coerced into tying a State into a treaty that the State would object to, but this is the expressed will of the State.

I do not believe there is any loophole, but if he can create the suspicion that there might be, he hopes it could persuade the EU to move, or Parliament to vote through his rehash of the deal. If there is a loophole, I don't think he would use it to actually leave without a deal, it is the threat of it he wants, not the realisation of it.

That was pretty much my take on it too, just wanted to see if i was missing anything.

daveinplzen · Oct 14, 2019

Hastings gull said:
Another silly little boy

Who is probably older than you. Your answer suggests the truth hurts. Which is funny. The Brexiteers on this thread seem to have extremely thin skins, which is also funny as they are the one's who use the 'snowflake' term the most often

lawros left foot · Oct 14, 2019

Goliath said:
Are you saying that if migrants did not do certain jobs(for less wages) then Brits would not do them and so we would lose tax money?

To a certain extent, yes.
The figure quoted is an average, therefore, a lot of migrants will be contributing less than that, seasonal work harvesting vegetables, care home assistant, etc, and a good amount will be contributing considerably more, Surgeons, CEO S of large companies, scientists, etc. British workers do not want to be picking spuds in Lincolnshire for 6 months of the year, for minimum wage, therefore not reaching the tax threshold, so paying no tax, anyway, and I personally don’t want my next heart operation being performed by some spotty youth who has just come in from the job centre, no matter what nationality he is.

I’m being flippant, but the point remains,migrants do the jobs we ( the British) either don’t want to do, or are incapable,( in sufficient numbers) of being able to do.

lawros left foot · Oct 14, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Sonia loses her job in the supermarket because everyone is now using self checkouts. She left school without a GCSE but that's ok because she can now become a nurse.
She will have to study to get her uni qualifications, claiming benefits because she isn't working, but that's ok. Two years later, she's done it, and then has to borrow £9K for uni fees over the next three years (which will never be paid back because her wages are so low) and finally three years later she's now a nurse.

In the meantime, qualified European nurses are leaving in their droves because they've been assaulted in the hospitals and told to go home. A friend who was pregnant was kicked in the stomach by a man.

My daughter wanted to train as a midwife, and was in the process of applying when Cameron’s Government removed the bursary. She already had a first with honours in Human geography, but decided she would do another 3 years training in midwifery. Having already taken on a £30000 loan for her first degree, a midwife degree would have cost her another 30,000, so, it proved impossible without the bursary.

Great forethought and planning by the Government of the time.

Thunder Bolt · Oct 14, 2019

lawros left foot said:
My daughter wanted to train as a midwife, and was in the process of applying when Cameron’s Government removed the bursary. She already had a first with honours in Human geography, but decided she would do another 3 years training in midwifery. Having already taken on a £30000 loan for her first degree, a midwife degree would have cost her another 30,000, so, it proved impossible without the bursary.

Great forethought and planning by the Government of the time.

What this government has done to our health service is wicked.

Garry Nelson's Left Foot · Oct 14, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
What is British culture? Cricket? Our teams have West Indians & Kiwis. Football? How many nationalities play for the Albion?
Our prime minister is a son of an immigrant.
Our armed forces are full of immigrants. Admiral Lord Nelson defeated Napolean at the Battle of Trafalgar on board HMS Victory, with a crew made up of 22 different nationalities.

Whatever you think English cultures is, it doesn't exist. The Crusaders were mainly French. King Richard the Lionheart lived in France for most of his life, and only spoke French.
St George was Middle Eastern.

It does, it really does.

Denying the existence of English culture is just plain wrong. You're right that it's an elusive thing and that's how it should be. It should be malleable and adaptive, taking in new influences and sources. If it doesn't then it's dead and belongs in a museum.

It's a funny thing culture. It essentially is just a certain groups certain way of seeing and doing things. People put a lot of store in the obvious markers of culture. I live in a country that puts huge emphasis on these things, on tradition - whether it's traditional Japanese art or music or dance or the tea ceremony or calligraphy or 100 other things that mark the Japanese as being Japanese. None of it is that important, what is important is the thread that runs through it and runs into modern culture - the respect, the hierarchical system, the belief and dedication to practice and perfecting whatever it is that they are doing and the 100 other things that form the Japanese character without being an overt practice. If they don't teach their kids a traditional Japanese art they're still going to be Japanese because the world around them is Japanese.

What people mean when they say they are losing their culture is that they are losing the way that they see and interact with the world, their markers and traditions. Whether or not this is actually true it doesn't matter, that's what they think. Maybe they are right, maybe they will lose the obvious markers that they grew up with, that sign post their lives but they are wrong if they think English culture is being lost. It will still exist but it's a living and breathing thing so it will exist in an altered form, bearing the hallmarks of its newer influences. The signposts might change but the thread that runs through it will remain and it's the thread that is English culture not the sign posts, not morris dancing or summer fetes or tea and scones with the vicar or downing ten pints an evening down the pub or whatever else people think is being lost.

I'm not sure I've stated clearly my thinking on the subject but it's late and it took a while to type so I'm minded to post it anyway. No offence is intended to either side with this post(there's more than enough given and taken in this thread already), its just my thoughts on culture and the existence thereof.

GrizzlingGammon · Oct 14, 2019

Goliath said:
Are you saying that if migrants did not do certain jobs(for less wages) then Brits would not do them and so we would lose tax money?

Fruit picking. Its low paid, hard work. It is mainly done by immigrants because people from the UK will not do it.

Hastings gull · Oct 14, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
This Tory government took away the nurses bursary to make it more difficult for British people to train.
This Tory government is making it more difficult for immigrants to come & work in our NHS.

Why? Because they want to sell it off.[/QUOTE]

Thank goodness we have your insight. Now we all know.

Hampster Gull · Oct 14, 2019

Garry Nelson's Left Foot said:
It does, it really does.

Denying the existence of English culture is just plain wrong. You're right that it's an elusive thing and that's how it should be. It should be malleable and adaptive, taking in new influences and sources. If it doesn't then it's dead and belongs in a museum.

It's a funny thing culture. It essentially is just a certain groups certain way of seeing and doing things. People put a lot of store in the obvious markers of culture. I live in a country that puts huge emphasis on these things, on tradition - whether it's traditional Japanese art or music or dance or the tea ceremony or calligraphy or 100 other things that mark the Japanese as being Japanese. None of it is that important, what is important is the thread that runs through it and runs into modern culture - the respect, the hierarchical system, the belief and dedication to practice and perfecting whatever it is that they are doing and the 100 other things that form the Japanese character without being an overt practice. If they don't teach their kids a traditional Japanese art they're still going to be Japanese because the world around them is Japanese.

What people mean when they say they are losing their culture is that they are losing the way that they see and interact with the world, their markers and traditions. Whether or not this is actually true it doesn't matter, that's what they think. Maybe they are right, maybe they will lose the obvious markers that they grew up with, that sign post their lives but they are wrong if they think English culture is being lost. It will still exist but it's a living and breathing thing so it will exist in an altered form, bearing the hallmarks of its newer influences. The signposts might change but the thread that runs through it will remain and it's the thread that is English culture not the sign posts, not morris dancing or summer fetes or tea and scones with the vicar or downing ten pints an evening down the pub or whatever else people think is being lost.

I'm not sure I've stated clearly my thinking on the subject but it's late and it took a while to type so I'm minded to post it anyway. No offence is intended to either side with this post(there's more than enough given and taken in this thread already), its just my thoughts on culture and the existence thereof.

Very good post :thumbsup:

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