[Politics] Brexit

Bodian · Oct 11, 2019

dingodan said:
In some ways where we have arrived at is where we should have started, respecting the needs of both the EU and the UK and trying to work out a challenging yet neccessary compromise. Without wishing to seem disrespectful towards the EU, their approach has up until now seemed to me to be more interested in making Brexit seem as difficult as possible, for political reasons, rather than genuinely being interested in getting it done in as healthy a way as possible. Hopefully that is what has changed here, but we will have to see what we end up with at the end of this part of negotiations to find out what has changed.

I think you're wrong here. If where we have arrived is with a border in the Irish Sea (which seems the most likely 'deal' at the moment) - then this is precisely what the EU suggested to Theresa May at the outset after having seen her red lines. Remember, it was Theresa May who then went on and invented the backstop, not the EU. Now it seems as though we could be reverting to what the EU proposed.

So - there hasn't actually been any change in approach from the EU, it's the UK Government who seem to be finally realising that their demands were unfeasible, and are now falling into line with the EU.

ManOfSussex · Oct 11, 2019

Kinky Gerbils said:
No deal is a disaster, it puts us on the back foot for the same negotiations we will have with or without a deal.

We’ve seen the states give zero ****s over the UK this week over 1 person, how do you think they will act with a trade deal.

There's no point talking to a no deal advocate about no deal. A no deal will hand us all the ace cards and a good deal will come along very quickly as a result, exactly like when German car manufacturers would be demanding a deal within minutes of a vote for Brexit, as would France to it's protect £3bn of food and wine exports etc, etc.

Lever · Oct 11, 2019

dingodan said:
First the waiving of diplomatic immunity isn't something which is ever done easily, it's also very different from trade negotiations which are very pragmatic in nature, and apolitical in detail. Not a worthwhile comparison.

Actually the first thing which would happen if we had no deal with the EU would be, strangely, a deal with the EU, done as quickly as possible. That's one of the reasons that No Deal has seemed the only way forward, it's the quickest route to a deal (maybe that has now changed).

But I get it, people are incredibly opposed to no deal, and not without some justification, although not as much as perhaps they think. But anyway, perceptions matter and the perception is that it would be the end of the world, lead to the deaths of thousands (literally that has been said) etc, so Ok, I recognize that No Deal is never going to have sufficient support to get done with people's blessing and a positive attitude. Like I said, I recognize the need to compromise and do a deal, if only for the sake of allaying peoples fears, even if I personally believe those fears are far greater than is justified. I don't want people massively upset and fearful. I hope also that there are remainers out there who also don't want voters to feel that the result of the vote has been ignored and democracy thrown out either. Like I said, compromise and pragmatism is what is required.

What a thoroughly decent person you are!.... You include 'compromise', 'allaying people's fears' 'not wanting remain voters to feel their vote has been ignored', 'pragmatism'- and you obviously feel the Johnston deal will produce all that. Are you a fully paid up member of the Conservative Party?

hans kraay fan club · Oct 11, 2019

Goliath said:
I hate it when remainers say they believe people have now changed their minds and would vote remain when they have no proof.It's just what they think.Did you carry out your own extensive poll?

.

No, I didn't carry out my OWN extensive poll. I didn't need to. 75 polling organisations did that for me, in the last 12 months. 74 of those polls returned a Remain majority.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...olls-says-most-now-want-to-stay-a4257476.html

Lever · Oct 11, 2019

Goliath said:
I hate it when remainers say they believe people have now changed their minds and would vote remain when they have no proof.It's just what they think.Did you carry out your own extensive poll?

It makes more sense that the leave side would get more votes as project fear turned out to be a hoax and also everyone has seen what a bunch of sarcastic dicks the EU are.
Germany are on the verge of a recession and we are doing fairly well.Project fear was bull./QUOTE]

I don't know on what basis you make that claim or indeed if you really do need reminding again, but we are still in the EU

WATFORD zero · Oct 11, 2019

Lever said:
Goliath said:

I hate it when remainers say they believe people have now changed their minds and would vote remain when they have no proof.It's just what they think.Did you carry out your own extensive poll?

It makes more sense that the leave side would get more votes as project fear turned out to be a hoax and also everyone has seen what a bunch of sarcastic dicks the EU are.
Germany are on the verge of a recession and we are doing fairly well.Project fear was bull./QUOTE]

I don't know on what basis you make that claim or indeed if you really do need reminding again, but we are still in the EU

Click to expand...

It's got to be two profs.

There isn't an actor alive today who could play that level of idiocy with that much conviction

dingodan · Oct 11, 2019

Lever said:
What a thoroughly decent person you are!.... You include 'compromise', 'allaying people's fears' 'not wanting remain voters to feel their vote has been ignored', 'pragmatism'- and you obviously feel the Johnston deal will produce all that. Are you a fully paid up member of the Conservative Party?

I feel that avoiding a no deal Brexit would do that yes.

It should do, unless you think the only acceptable thing we can do is remain. But that's no compromise, it's as obtuse and hard-line as demanding a no deal Brexit.

Papa Lazarou · Oct 11, 2019

hans kraay fan club said:
No, I didn't carry out my OWN extensive poll. I didn't need to. 75 polling organisations did that for me, in the last 12 months. 74 of those polls returned a Remain majority.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...olls-says-most-now-want-to-stay-a4257476.html

You and your bloody facts. You are not welcome here.

Lever · Oct 11, 2019

dingodan said:
I feel that avoiding a no deal Brexit would do that yes.

It should do, unless you think the only acceptable thing we can do is remain. But that's no compromise, it's as obtuse and hard-line as demanding a no deal Brexit.

.... and you think Johnston is the person to make that necessary compromise because he is a trustworthy politician without an agenda whereas those who think otherwise or challenge him on his deal or his record are not to be trusted because their hidden agenda is 'the only acceptable thing we can do is remain'?
I hope you are well paid for your efforts.....

Lever · Oct 11, 2019

dingodan said:
I feel that avoiding a no deal Brexit would do that yes.

It should do, unless you think the only acceptable thing we can do is remain. But that's no compromise, it's as obtuse and hard-line as demanding a no deal Brexit.

There are many compromises but the people should get the final say on any choice... including an option for those who have changed their mind and now wish for us to remain in the EU

dingodan · Oct 11, 2019

hans kraay fan club said:
No, I didn't carry out my OWN extensive poll. I didn't need to. 75 polling organisations did that for me, in the last 12 months. 74 of those polls returned a Remain majority.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...olls-says-most-now-want-to-stay-a4257476.html

Look, I'm not going to claim to have much of an idea where the public are now, but polls don't cut it for making a case that you do.

There was a lot of polling done before the vote. So confident were people that they knew how people felt that:

Ladbrokes’ last-minute odds for the EU referendum were:
1/4 in favour of remaining in the EU
3/1 in favour of exiting the EU

It would not surprise me in the slightest if we had another vote and the night before the polls showed a remain win, and the day after we are once again talking about what a load of rubbish polling is.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-right-or-wrong-were-the-polls/

dingodan · Oct 11, 2019

Lever said:
.... and you think Johnston is the person to make that necessary compromise because he is a trustworthy politician and those who think otherwise or challenge him on his deal or his record are not to be trusted because their hidden agenda is that 'the only acceptable thing we can do is remain'?
I hope you are well paid for your efforts.....

Well to be fair to you you did use a couple of things I have said, unfortunately you put a whole bunch of your own words before, in between and after my words.

So much so that I'm not even really sure what you are accusing me of? If the PM gets a deal, which it looks like he might, then yes his deal would prevent no deal and allay peoples fears. If you think that wouldn't be enough to allay peoples fears, then you must (I guess?) be suggesting that avoiding no deal isn't enough. So what are you saying would be enough, if you don't mean overturning Brexit completely and remaining?

It looks like we are going for a deal and so is the EU. If one gets done, and when we find out the detail, then we will find out who has been sincere, and we will find out who has been genuinely open to a deal and who has just been pretending to be.

Hastings gull · Oct 11, 2019

dingodan said:
Look, I'm not going to claim to have much of an idea where the public are now, but polls don't cut it for making a case that you do.

There was a lot of polling done before the vote. So confident were people that they knew how people felt that:

Ladbrokes’ last-minute odds for the EU referendum were:
1/4 in favour of remaining in the EU
3/1 in favour of exiting the EU

It would not surprise me in the slightest if we had another vote and the night before the polls showed a remain win, and the day after we are once again talking about what a load of rubbish polling is.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-right-or-wrong-were-the-polls/

Interesting. We all know how fallible the polls can be, yet when they predict an election result that is to our liking, we praise them.

Lever · Oct 11, 2019

dingodan said:
Well to be fair to you you did use a couple of things I have said, unfortunately you put a whole bunch of your own words before, in between and after my words.

So much so that I'm not even really sure what you are accusing me of? If the PM gets a deal, which it looks like he might, then yes his deal would prevent no deal and allay peoples fears. If you think that wouldn't be enough to allay peoples fears, then you must (I guess?) be suggesting that avoiding no deal isn't enough. So what are you saying would be enough, if you don't mean overturning Brexit completely and remaining?

It looks like we are going for a deal and so is the EU. If one gets done, and when we find out the detail, then we will find out who has been sincere, and we will find out who has been genuinely open to a deal and who has just been pretending to be.

I am not accusing you of anything except possibly a high level of trust in Boris Johnston that he has not earned; I am also a bit concerned that you seem to be suggesting those who question his motives or look at the detail of his plan are likely to be 'no compromise' remainers. That of course is exactly what Johnston will say......
You are right - we will see.

Hugo Rune · Oct 11, 2019

Listening to EU experts on R5, it seems ANY deal will require a ‘technical extension’.

No Deal is the only thing that could happen on the 31st Oct now. Boris won’t sacrifice his new job for No Deal so folk may as well cancel their Brexit parties. What he will sacrifice is the DUP!

Funny thing is, that election which Corbyn is meant to be scared to death of will be triggered on the 1st Nov when the vote of no confidence is taken. Johnson will regret stabbing the DUP in the back when we arrive at that vote.

dingodan · Oct 11, 2019

Lever said:
[/B]

I am not accusing you of anything except possibly a high level of faith in Boris Johnston that he has not earned; I am also a bit concerned that you seem to be suggesting those who question his motives or look at the detail of his plan are likely to be 'no compromise' remainers. That of course is exactly what Johnston will say......
You are right - we will see.

Ok, well I said that getting a deal and avoiding no deal, if he does that, will (or should) be a relief to a lot of people who have been very opposed to where this has all been heading.

I haven't been able to work out whether you would welcome a deal or not. I'm not suggesting that wanting to see what gets done and even feeling reluctant to trust the PM makes you a "no compromise" remainer. But, if a deal isn't good enough for you, and if no deal is something you are absolutely opposed to, then I don't see much left to put you down for that you could get onboard with, other than remaining. That would make you a "no compromise" remainer.

You haven't said it, but if you would welcome a deal then great. Those like me should put aside our feelings that a clean break would be best, and those like you should put aside your feelings that remaining would be best, and we should come together accepting that neither of us can have what we want, but we can end up in a position where we leave, and we do it maintaining good relations and a smooth transition to the new reality. After which I'm sure what we all want is harmony, cooperation and a positive, constructive and productive relationship with our friends and neighbours in the EU, just without the constraints and friction which have resulted from being in a political union.

Blue Valkyrie · Oct 11, 2019

dingodan said:
Ok, well I said that getting a deal and avoiding no deal, if he does that, will (or should) be a relief to a lot of people who have been very opposed to where this has all been heading.

I haven't been able to work out whether you would welcome a deal or not. I'm not suggesting that wanting to see what gets done and even feeling reluctant to trust the PM makes you a "no compromise" remainer. But, if a deal isn't good enough for you, and if no deal is something you are absolutely opposed to, then I don't see much left to put you down for that you could get onboard with, other than remaining. That would make you a "no compromise" remainer.

You haven't said it, but if you would welcome a deal then great. Those like me should put aside our feelings that a clean break would be best, and those like you should put aside your feelings that remaining would be best, and we should come together accepting that neither of us can have what we want, but we can end up in a position where we leave, and we do it maintaining good relations and a smooth transition to the new reality. After which I'm sure what we all want is harmony, cooperation and a positive, constructive and productive relationship with our friends and neighbours in the EU, just without the constraints and friction which have resulted from being in a political union.

Very well put.

It has been obvious for a while that "winner takes all" in any close referendum will never let a country move on.

Hastings gull · Oct 11, 2019

dingodan said:
Ok, well I said that getting a deal and avoiding no deal, if he does that, will (or should) be a relief to a lot of people who have been very opposed to where this has all been heading.

I haven't been able to work out whether you would welcome a deal or not. I'm not suggesting that wanting to see what gets done and even feeling reluctant to trust the PM makes you a "no compromise" remainer. But, if a deal isn't good enough for you, and if no deal is something you are absolutely opposed to, then I don't see much left to put you down for that you could get onboard with, other than remaining. That would make you a "no compromise" remainer.

You haven't said it, but if you would welcome a deal then great. Those like me should put aside our feelings that a clean break would be best, and those like you should put aside your feelings that remaining would be best, and we should come together accepting that neither of us can have what we want, but we can end up in a position where we leave, and we do it maintaining good relations and a smooth transition to the new reality. After which I'm sure what we all want is harmony, cooperation and a positive, constructive and productive relationship with our friends and neighbours in the EU, just without the constraints and friction which have resulted from being in a political union.

Yes, seems utterly reasonable and well put. I now await the extremists.

WATFORD zero · Oct 11, 2019

Hastings gull said:
Yes, seems utterly reasonable and well put. I now await the extremists.

So, because the penny has finally dropped for a couple more 'no deal' Brexiteers after 3.5 years, everyone else should change their minds?

Righty oh :thumbsup:

*edit* Not including BV as he was always a leaver who wanted a deal.

Lever · Oct 11, 2019

dingodan said:
Ok, well I said that getting a deal and avoiding no deal, if he does that, will (or should) be a relief to a lot of people who have been very opposed to where this has all been heading.

I haven't been able to work out whether you would welcome a deal or not. I'm not suggesting that wanting to see what gets done and even feeling reluctant to trust the PM makes you a "no compromise" remainer. But, if a deal isn't good enough for you, and if no deal is something you are absolutely opposed to, then I don't see much left to put you down for that you could get onboard with, other than remaining. That would make you a "no compromise" remainer.

You haven't said it, but if you would welcome a deal then great. Those like me should put aside our feelings that a clean break would be best, and those like you should put aside your feelings that remaining would be best, and we should come together accepting that neither of us can have what we want, but we can end up in a position where we leave, and we do it maintaining good relations and a smooth transition to the new reality. After which I'm sure what we all want is harmony, cooperation and a positive, constructive and productive relationship with our friends and neighbours in the EU, just without the constraints and friction which have resulted from being in a political union.

Dodgy logic. Dodgy language.
There was a deal worked out by the EU and the Government over 2 years (voted down by parliament several times)
There is the so-called 'Norway Deal' (lauded by Farage before the Referendum, maligned afterwards)
Labour claim to have a compromise deal which has not been explained

all of which are 'compromises' and all of which have been dismissed by parliament including 'Clean Break' (aka No Deal shambles) enthusiasts like you

....and yet an unscrutinised Plan by arch Leaver Johnston seems to have already found favour with you - even though we don't know the details!.... and that's why your rhetoric is rather suspect. Even your language of 'our friends and neighbours in the EU' is a cue taken from a recent Johnston 'charm offensive' after years of his undermining and slighting those 'friends and neighbours' .

If closely scrutinised, accepted and followed through - then this compromise should be welcomed and put to a People's Final Vote along with the other options. That should be the end of the matter.....

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