[Politics] Brexit

Simster · Oct 9, 2019

portslade seagull said:
The Sabres are rattling on all sides and it would seem a No Deal is favourite. I hold all parties responsible the SNP because of their agenda to push another independence vote throughout the last 3yrs, Labour don't really know what they want firstly out then in then out and now back in now wonder they are losing votes and are now 15pts behind in the polls. Lib Dems pushing any agenda to gain votes how easily forgotten that they helped introduce uni fees well actually pushed for them when in alliance with Blair. The Conservatives for being to conceited and May shooting herself in the foot by calling the election. If only they all got together to make the best of what was needed instead of turning it into the farce that now exists.

I tend to respect your posts these days but I'm sorry, this is mindless "all sides to blamery" and not remotely true.

Let's be clear - a Brexit could have been agreed 3 months after the process started. All that had to happen was that the Conservatives could have agreed to stay in a customs union - something promised by Michael Gove BEFORE the referendum. The absurd self imposed red-lines were never part of the deal and has made a satisfactory deal absolutely impossible to agree to for every other party.

We are now at the point where leavers are being dragged along by propaganda and lies - the EU are not interested in negotiating, parliament is hell bent on preventing Brexit, the judges are traitors, the speaker is abusing his power etc - along with dangerous language towards anyone who disagrees with the what is going on. Sadly, I am convinced we will end up with no deal in the new year because this awful government will win enough seats to make it so.

This doesn't feel like my country anymore. It is a total abuse of position by those on the right of the Conservative party. I just want a compromise, something that respects the vote but is in broadly line with public thinking. What we are getting is absolutely disgusting.

midnight_rendezvous · Oct 9, 2019

portslade seagull said:
There were far more from remain which had far more resource to make them up. It worked against them

What utter tosh and classic whatabouttery. Here are some classic Leave lies that I’m sure you’ve either confidently forgotten or convinced yourself aren’t so bad;

We can’t stop Turkey joining
We can’t stop a European army
We are still liable to pay eurozone bailouts
The UK rebate can be changed against our will
Our VAT exemptions will be ended
EU law is adopted by unelected bureaucrats
We can’t control our borders in the EU
Criminals arriving in Germany can get EU passports and come over here
Health tourism costs us billions
EU needs UK trade more than vice versa
Past referendum results have been ignored
Auditors still refuse to sign off the accounts
CAP adds £400 to British food bills
British steel suffers because of the EU
Irish border will be unaffected by Brexit
UK can’t deport EU criminals
UK is always outvoted
60-70% of laws come from EU
Renationalisation of industries is impossible
We get no veto on future treaty change or integration
The budget ceiling can increase without our consent

portlock seagull · Oct 9, 2019

DavidinSouthampton said:
And it is brinkmanship that is playing with the lives, the hopes and the fears of 60 million plus people..... whichever way they voted.

Has ever been thus, we live a tumble dryer of a world with no say over the spin cycle. Except we know it’s just going to get hotter and hotter!

Bwian · Oct 9, 2019

Goliath said:
The EU will only approve a very soft Brexit.Its obvious the only way to sort this is with No Deal.An extension for what?We've done nothing in over 3 years so an extension is pointless.The EU just want to keep locking us in,in the hope Remoaners will find a way to stop us haveing any kind of Brexit.

As a Leaver I am constantly told by Remoaners that I did not vote for a No Deal.Actually I also did not vote for a deal.

Another referendum?Really?So if Leave win again we have to go through all of this again?Lol.

Remoaners? Isn't it time to grow up?

And with regard to "having to go through all of this again" perhaps you need to reacquaint yourself with Farage's comment that had the result been reversed, he would have been pressing for a second vote. Perhaps you can explain how that principle is ok for one side but not the other?

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A1X · Oct 9, 2019

Goliath said:
As a Leaver I am constantly told by Remoaners that I did not vote for a No Deal.Actually I also did not vote for a deal.

Quick reminder that, actually, you did.

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...inal/1463496002/Why_Vote_Leave.pdf?1463496002

Point 4 on page 11.

Lever · Oct 9, 2019

portslade seagull said:
Why do you keep changing the rules to suit your logic. 52% won it. Even if it was 60 to 40 you would still be spouting it should have been set at 75% by Cameron to carry the vote. It seems remainers are returning to pre 2016 scare stories which lost a lot of votes in the 1st place. Put voters backs up and they will react.
Remain would have won comfortably in 2016 without all the crap they pumped out

No change of rules
Who says any further referendum (if there should ever be one) should not carry the clause that no action must be taken without a substantial majority (say 60% to 40% minimum split)?

Without that mandate the breakdown is too balanced for us to move on harmoniously.

I respect your comments in general - your sideswipes are simply pointless drivel

Blue Valkyrie · Oct 9, 2019

Goliath said:
As a Leaver I am constantly told by Remoaners that I did not vote for a No Deal.Actually I also did not vote for a deal.

Good for you. You clearly were OK with *no deal* when you voted to leave.

Sadly, there are countless other Leave voters who voted to leave - but only with a deal ( as detailed in the available supplementary referendum information. )

maltaseagull · Oct 9, 2019

Simster said:
I tend to respect your posts these days but I'm sorry, this is mindless "all sides to blamery" and not remotely true.

Let's be clear - a Brexit could have been agreed 3 months after the process started. All that had to happen was that the Conservatives could have agreed to stay in a customs union - something promised by Michael Gove BEFORE the referendum. The absurd self imposed red-lines were never part of the deal and has made a satisfactory deal absolutely impossible to agree to for every other party.

We are now at the point where leavers are being dragged along by propaganda and lies - the EU are not interested in negotiating, parliament is hell bent on preventing Brexit, the judges are traitors, the speaker is abusing his power etc - along with dangerous language towards anyone who disagrees with the what is going on. Sadly, I am convinced we will end up with no deal in the new year because this awful government will win enough seats to make it so.

This doesn't feel like my country anymore. It is a total abuse of position by those on the right of the Conservative party. I just want a compromise, something that respects the vote but is in broadly line with public thinking. What we are getting is absolutely disgusting.

The problem is that nobody in Parliament seems willing to compromise.
Although the referendum result was 52% /48% the two main sides want to have either remain completely or leave no matter what.
Respecting the result by both sides would surely equal a soft brexit?

Not going to happen now though.

Thunder Bolt · Oct 9, 2019

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...s-obriens-pinpoints-the-current-state-brexit/

Speaking on his LBC show, James summed it all up: "No deliverable Brexit was desirable and no desirable Brexit was deliverable. Full stop.

Many Brexiters are claiming that they wanted this no deal Brexit all along, but James pointed out: "If no deal Brexit is really what you wanted all along, why are your heroes now desperately trying to blame it on the European Union?

Simster · Oct 9, 2019

maltaseagull said:
The problem is that nobody in Parliament seems willing to compromise.
Although the referendum result was 52% /48% the two main sides want to have either remain completely or leave no matter what.
Respecting the result by both sides would surely equal a soft brexit?

Not going to happen now though.

Again, that's not really true - or wasn't in the year or two after the vote. The Conservatives would easily have had the numbers to vote if they had opted for a customs union solution, or bothered to bring in a cross party negotiating team. They didn't, they got taken over by extremists and that is why we are where we are.

portslade seagull · Oct 9, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
How on earth do you figure No Deal is the favoute? The majority of the public have consistently voted for parties who rule out a no deal Brexit. And, re polls, more people turned up to watch Corbyn speak in Newcastle than have ever taken part in a YouGov poll. Labour are very clear on what they want. It just can’t be put into a three word sound bite so political commentators deliberately make out that it’s confusing and unclear.

Labour are clear on what they want ??. What does it happen to be this week then. How many momentum foot soldiers did the muster then. It's the general moderate they have lost not the fanatical left wing ones who want to take over the party

Kinky Gerbil · Oct 9, 2019

Gwylan said:
That's a good thread - but then, he's saying what I've been saying for a couple of years. What surprises me is how few of us there: everyone seems a hardcore remainer or a hardcore Brexiteer. You'd think there'd be more of us who voted to leave and are horrified at the situation we're now in, something a long, long way from what I envisaged. But we seem to be very few in number, I can't work out why so many people seem to be looking forward to economic chaos and the dismantling of key democratic principles.

I imagine there is quite a few like you (including MPs) , however they wont say anything because of the rage they will face.

Brexit is not about Brexit anymore, it is about winning at all costs - which will hit those hardest hit.

The blame game we are seeing now is not about leaving, but about the damage after we leave with no deal.

midnight_rendezvous · Oct 9, 2019

portslade seagull said:
Labour are clear on what they want ??. What does it happen to be this week then. How many momentum foot soldiers did the muster then. It's the general moderate they have lost not the fanatical left wing ones who want to take over the party

They are and have been for a long time: negotiate a deal and then put it to the people with an option of remaining. Ah yes, because the only people that listen to what Corbyn has to say are momentum leftist cultists. I mean, tell yourself that it’s only the fanatical left wing that supports Corbyn if it makes you feel better but we both know that it’s not true.

Silverhatch · Oct 9, 2019

Gwylan said:
That's a good thread - but then, he's saying what I've been saying for a couple of years. What surprises me is how few of us there: everyone seems a hardcore remainer or a hardcore Brexiteer. You'd think there'd be more of us who voted to leave and are horrified at the situation we're now in, something a long, long way from what I envisaged. But we seem to be very few in number, I can't work out why so many people seem to be looking forward to economic chaos and the dismantling of key democratic principles.

I took a good, hard long look at both sides of the argument and tried to keep the noise and misinformation out of my decision (very hard).

I do not like what the EU has become - but i think Britain's historic position as the devil's advocate in Brussels is brilliant for the continent's peace and prosperity. Having looked at the pros and cons i decided on balance to vote remain and have us fight for a better Europe. However, I never considered or was told about the potential impact on the Good Friday Agreement and Scotland and the fact that an in out binary referendum could produce a situation where blocks of the Union could vote wholeheartedly to remain (62% Scotland/56% N.I) whereas England and Wales wanted out 53/47. No one saw this coming. That's why we're in such a shit storm.

Herr Tubthumper · Oct 9, 2019

Gwylan said:
That's a good thread - but then, he's saying what I've been saying for a couple of years. What surprises me is how few of us there: everyone seems a hardcore remainer or a hardcore Brexiteer. You'd think there'd be more of us who voted to leave and are horrified at the situation we're now in, something a long, long way from what I envisaged. But we seem to be very few in number, I can't work out why so many people seem to be looking forward to economic chaos and the dismantling of key democratic principles.

It’s easy

1) Because they’re thick or
2) It doesn’t affect them or
3) 1) and 2).

Simster · Oct 9, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
I mean, tell yourself that it’s only the fanatical left wing that supports Corbyn if it makes you feel better but we both know that it’s not true.

I'll tell myself that Corbyn appeals to a hardcore 20% and nobody else. That's why even though the Tories are absolutely terrible, they are still 15 points behind in the polls.

midnight_rendezvous · Oct 9, 2019

Simster said:
I'll tell myself that Corbyn appeals to a hardcore 20% and nobody else. That's why even though the Tories are absolutely terrible, they are still 15 points behind in the polls.

The same polls that told us Remain would win, that Trump would lose and that, during May’s snap election, the Tories would win by a landslide? Ok then have fun with that.

Lever · Oct 9, 2019

Silverhatch said:
I took a good, hard long look at both sides of the argument and tried to keep the noise and misinformation out of my decision (very hard).

I do not like what the EU has become - but i think Britain's historic position as the devil's advocate in Brussels is brilliant for the continent's peace and prosperity. Having looked at the pros and cons i decided on balance to vote remain and have us fight for a better Europe. However, I never considered or was told about the potential impact on the Good Friday Agreement and Scotland and the fact that an in out binary referendum could produce a situation where blocks of the Union could vote wholeheartedly to remain (62% Scotland/56% N.I) whereas England and Wales wanted out 53/47. No one saw this coming. That's why we're in such a shit storm.

Which is why I say there should have been a minimum threshold (suggested 60%/40%) for change; anything lower is too close to being an even split......

Simster · Oct 9, 2019

midnight_rendezvous said:
The same polls that told us Remain would win, that Trump would lose and that, during May’s snap election, the Tories would win by a landslide? Ok then have fun with that.

Are we just going to ignore the fact that polls normally get it right, just because they haven't done so twice? And should we also ignore the fact that historically polls always underestimate the Tory vote, not Labour?

Bwian · Oct 9, 2019

Kinky Gerbils said:
I imagine there is quite a few like you (including MPs) , however they wont say anything because of the rage they will face.

Brexit is not about Brexit anymore, it is about winning at all costs - which will hit those hardest hit.

The blame game we are seeing now is not about leaving, but about the damage after we leave with no deal.

Sadly that is the case for most now-except the ERG who are happy to see our economy and currency trashed to stuff their already substantial bank accounts.

Now would be the perfect time to do away with the ridiculous First Past The Post system which always leaves a large chunk of the population feeling that their vote means nothing-Right, Left or Centre. Right now politicians on all sides are shitting themselves in case they have to fight another election thanks to the clusterf.uck our electoral system has contributed to.

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