[Politics] Brexit

Herr Tubthumper · Oct 8, 2019

nicko31 said:
Do you have a German passport? My understanding is dual nationality is only allowed with EU countries, not 3rd countries...

No. I can only obtain this after 8 years of continuous living. I can start the application after 7 though. I have been here 6.5. And you are correct about dual-nationality; you are expected to give up other passports. There are exceptions to this law for some specific impractical, difficulty or political/religious reasons. I can’t recall what these are.

vegster · Oct 8, 2019

Sounds like "The Easiest Deal Ever" and " We Hold all The Cards " is going well.

Thunder Bolt · Oct 8, 2019

cjd said:
So....in a nutshell.....the posh public schoolboy is having temper tantrum.

Yes, and no. He wants a No Deal. Everything else is pretence. Pretending to find a new deal, that he knows will be turned down, pretending to agree to ask for an extension when he has no intention of sending that letter.
He wants No Deal, but he wants to blame everyone and everything else for the chaos it will cause.
In the meantime, he, his cronies, backers and donors will have pocketed millions, and the leavers will crow about having left.
He will then walk away from it all, just like Cameron did.

Goliath · Oct 8, 2019

The only way Remoaners will believe Johnson wants a deal is if he puts togther a deal which is more or less Remain.

beorhthelm · Oct 8, 2019

Baldseagull said:
This is the lie Rees-Mogg likes to put forward.

If you and I agree to have no fence between our gardens, so our kids can have more space to play, it might be me that puts a fence up when you leave an aggresive rottweiller in your garden, but it is you that has caused the need for the fence.

you still put up the fence. the analogy doesnt really work, whereas one might be responsible to fence in a dog, there is no responsibility to fence in trade. you police or impose tariffs on imports not exports.

had a quick look at the GFA and in 10 mentions of "border" not one related to trade, generally its about cooperation, so wonder where the specifics that a border breaches GFA come from. the end of the day there is nothing to prepare, unlike Calais and elsewhere.

JC Footy Genius · Oct 8, 2019

nicko31 said:
Parliament has not failed, that's classic Trump talk. They have been doing their job holding a corrupt executive to account that has no regard for the law.

Its the government has failed, they've achieved nothing since 2015, divided our nation, driven away investment and now risk the existence of our Union...

That's almost as funny as when you said the Uk was in the Eurozone.

Parliament voted against the negotiated deal repeatedly, they voted against leaving without a deal, they can't agree on a type of deal that they would support, they can't even agree on when to try to bring down the government or who should lead any interim government of remain .... but they haven't failed!?! :lolol:

ManOfSussex · Oct 8, 2019

beorhthelm said:
you still put up the fence. the analogy doesnt really work, whereas one might be responsible to fence in a dog, there is no responsibility to fence in trade. you police or impose tariffs on imports not exports.

had a quick peruse of the GFA and in 10 mentions of "border" not one related to trade, generally its about cooperation, so wonder where the specifics that a border breaches GFA come from. the end of the day there is nothing to prepare, unlike Calais and elsewhere.

How many times..........In the 70 years after Irish partitioning, there were customs posts and checks on the border. HMRC and Irish Revenue Officers got attacked and killed from the off when they were first imposed in April 1923. The IRA made a fortune smuggling everything and anything across the border, not just drugs and guns and put the money to use elsewhere. Then, on New Years Day 1993, The Maastricht Treaty came into play and The Belfast Agreement followed on a few years later which wouldn't have happened without The Anglo-Irish Agreement that proceeded both of them and underpinned it all.

The border is about far, far more than just trade and there's no frontier on the planet like it and I'm afraid all the bullshit proposals suggested so far by English Tories aren't going to solve the issue.

Blue Valkyrie · Oct 8, 2019

ManOfSussex said:
How many times..........In the 70 years after Irish partitioning, there were customs posts and checks on the border. HMRC and Irish Revenue Officers got attacked and killed from the off when they were first imposed in April 1923. The IRA made a fortune smuggling everything and anything across the border, not just drugs and guns and put the money to use elsewhere. Then, on New Years Day 1993, The Maastricht Treaty came into play and The Belfast Agreement followed on a few years later which wouldn't have happened without The Anglo-Irish Agreement that proceeded both of them and underpinned it all.

The border is about far, far more than just trade and there's no frontier on the planet like it and I'm afraid all the bullshit proposals suggested so far by English Tories aren't going to solve the issue.

We really need an Irish unification referendum. Yes - problem solved. No - agree the backstop.

beorhthelm · Oct 8, 2019

ManOfSussex said:
The border is about far, far more than just trade and there's no frontier on the planet like it and I'm afraid all the bullshit proposals suggested so far by English Tories aren't going to solve the issue.

despite the many times, still no clearer how the EU will solve the issue from their side, if the UK dont bother to, if no-deal happens and UK say we're not putting any physical border in place. Maastricht facilitated customs between the nations, while movement of people already covered by Common Travel Area, outside EU. so it is about handling trade.

A1X · Oct 8, 2019

beorhthelm said:
despite the many times, still no clearer how the EU will solve the issue from their side, if the UK dont bother to. Maastricht facilitated customs between the nations, while movement of people already covered by Common Travel Area, outside EU. so it is about handling trade.

So you think Brexiters who voted Leave to stop immigration will be happy to keep the Common Travel Area open when Ireland still has Freedom of Movement?

nicko31 · Oct 8, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
Parliament voted against the negotiated deal repeatedly, they voted against leaving without a deal, they can't agree on a type of deal that they would support, they can't even agree on when to try to bring down the government or who should lead any interim government of remain .... but they haven't failed!?!

Of course parliament voted against no deal, we're not quite there where there is a majority for breaking international law (well at least not yet).

As for May's deal, well you can blame the ERG for stopping that for not getting through

You are expecting parliament to deliver your Brexit Unicorns based on a pack of lies delivered to us in 2016.

As soon as you write it all down it all falls apart, no deal is all you have.

beorhthelm · Oct 8, 2019

A1X said:
So you think Brexiters who voted Leave to stop immigration will be happy to keep the Common Travel Area open when Ireland still has Freedom of Movement?

i dont expect leave voters give it any thought. the fact is the CTA existed before EU and still is in force, restated by both countries earlier in the year.

JC Footy Genius · Oct 8, 2019

beorhthelm said:
you still put up the fence. the analogy doesnt really work, whereas one might be responsible to fence in a dog, there is no responsibility to fence in trade. you police or impose tariffs on imports not exports.

had a quick look at the GFA and in 10 mentions of "border" not one related to trade, generally its about cooperation, so wonder where the specifics that a border breaches GFA come from. the end of the day there is nothing to prepare, unlike Calais and elsewhere.

Lord Justice McCloskey has ruled that ...

“Neither NIA 1998 nor the international treaty scheduled to the Belfast Agreement (or, for that matter, the Agreement itself) has the effect in law of requiring the continued membership of the EU on the part of the UK.

The Supreme Court was alert to this in Miller: see [129]. Furthermore, none of the sources mentioned subjects the EU 27 to conclude an Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement in any particular terms.”

“Once again, neither the Belfast Agreement nor this suite of provisions was predicated on the basis that UK membership of the EU would continue forever. Neither of them can be construed as requiring a customs Union or continued regulatory alignment. More fundamentally, there is no sufficient evidential foundation for the incompatibility asserted. There is no suggestion that the incompatibility has already materialised”

https://order-order.com/2019/09/13/...ules-hard-brexit-not-break-belfast-agreement/

A1X · Oct 8, 2019

beorhthelm said:
i dont expect leave voters give it any thought. the fact is the CTA existed before EU and still is in force, restated by both countries earlier in the year.

Didn't really bother answering the question there, did you?

JC Footy Genius · Oct 8, 2019

nicko31 said:
Of course parliament voted against no deal, we're not quite there where there is a majority for breaking international law (well at least not yet).

As for May's deal, well you can blame the ERG for stopping that for not getting through

You are expecting parliament to deliver your Brexit Unicorns based on a pack of lies delivered to us in 2016.

As soon as you write it all down it all falls apart, no deal is all you have.

I expect parliaments which vote overwhelmingly to give the people a say in a referendum ... parliaments that overwhelmingly vote to trigger article 50 so we can leave ... parliament that is overwhelmingly made up of MP's elected on manifestos saying they will enact the result ... to keep their promises and do their democratic duty.

ManOfSussex · Oct 8, 2019

beorhthelm said:
despite the many times, still no clearer how the EU will solve the issue from their side, if the UK dont bother to, if no-deal happens and UK say we're not putting any physical border in place. Maastricht facilitated customs between the nations, while movement of people already covered by Common Travel Area, outside EU. so it is about handling trade.

It's not The EU's issue to solve, we're the ones causing it. If, or rather when, infrastructure is required, as per every other border The EU has with non-EU neighbours, it'll be the result of the course of action set by London, not them. The world doesn't revolve around a little island in north west Europe and the entitled English people living there with their nostalgic delusions of grandeur. Blame the foreigners if you like, but the rest of the world doesn't think like that.

As you still think this is all about just trade and quote The CTA just like a Brexit backing, English Tory MP and ignore what the Irish border was actually like in the 70 years before Maastricht, it's really pointless talking to you.

nicko31 · Oct 8, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
I expect parliaments which vote overwhelmingly to give the people a say in a referendum ... parliaments that overwhelmingly vote to trigger article 50 so we can leave ... parliament that is overwhelmingly made up of MP's elected on manifestos saying they will enact the result ... to keep their promises and do their democratic duty.

I would have taken May's deal, but the Brexiters got greedy and now risk the very existence of our country, and maybe even their own Brexit that Murdoch, Dacre and the owners of the Ritz fought so hard for.

If Brexit doesn't happen you know who to blame...

beorhthelm · Oct 8, 2019

ManOfSussex said:
It's not The EU's issue to solve, we're the ones causing it. If, or rather when, infrastructure is required, as per every other border The EU has with non-EU neighbours, it'll be the result of the course of action set by London, not them. The world doesn't revolve around a little island in north west Europe and the entitled English people living there with their nostalgic delusions of grandeur. Blame the foreigners if you like, but the rest of the world doesn't think like that.

As you still think this is all about just trade and quote The CTA just like a Brexit backing, English Tory MP and ignore what the Irish border was actually like in the 70 years before Maastricht, it's really pointless talking to you.

im not blaming anyone, nor ignoring history, we're not there any more. you dont want to think or talk about it, reflects the general response to the question. doesnt really matter who caused a problem, if you need to deal with it, you need a plan to deal with it.

Bwian · Oct 8, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
I expect parliaments which vote overwhelmingly to give the people a say in a referendum ... parliaments that overwhelmingly vote to trigger article 50 so we can leave ... parliament that is overwhelmingly made up of MP's elected on manifestos saying they will enact the result ... to keep their promises and do their democratic duty.

They are doing their democratic duty-it just happens to be pissing off a lot of the ERG and their forelock tugging followers.

Parliamentary Democracy in action-protecting people from themselves. Leave means Leave is a pretty silly mantra when it is clear that leaving the EU without a workable, beneficial to all deal is totally unacceptable and currently impossible to implement.

None of the leavers have offered a sensible, workable solution to the Irish border issue that doesn't threaten the decades long peace that people have enjoyed. That one thing alone says that there must be a delay. A delay that remains in place until one of the leavers can offer a solution that doesn't threaten lives.

Let's not forget the sizeable cost to businesses for the processing of documents related to goods entering this country. That will be added costs in Billions. Who's going to pay for that?

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Two Professors · Oct 8, 2019

Actually,with the new ira attempting to re-infect Ireland,perhaps the EU Army patrolling the EU side of the border might be a good thing.There are still plenty of touts in the Ulster side of things,but perhaps not in the republic.

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